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Euxyl PE 9010 questions/advice
Hello all, thanks for the wealth of information & expertise shared here. I’ve greatly appreciated what I’ve learned so far.
I’d love preservative advice for a very basic conditioner- starting out simple and hope to eventually get to something I like for a dry/sensitive scalp. I haven’t been successful in making something I’ve liked in past attempts but many disappointing product trials and searches for something mild with silicones, that doesn’t leave me awful itchy, has me trying again.
Starting plan & sure open to advice:
Water q.s.
Edta .1%
Cetearyl total to ~5%
Btms or Btac ~1.5 % (not sure if my scalp does better with one over the other at this point)
Dimethicone ~2% to start (hope to later try additions of amodimethicone, maybe cyclopentasiloxane, a quat…)
Citric- to ph
Questions about Euxyl PE 9010:
1) If adding Euxyl at cool down, would I need to 1st mix it for solubility? I have glycerin, propanediol, (& propylene glycol but not leaning toward it). If so, how much is required to make the preservative soluable?
2) I’ve also seen this preservative used in the heated water phase. Would there be any benefit to this or would some get lost in evaporation? Would glycerin/propanediol be required there as well?
3) Would .75% Euxyl be a good place to start with .10% Edta? This doc seems to suggest .05% Edta is sufficient but not sure if this only applies to a lab environment.
I’m also wondering if there would be a benefit to using disodium over tetrasodium edta (or vice versa) here.
docs.google.com
HR-08-0043_Hair Conditioner with euxyl PE 9010.pdf
HR-08-0043_Hair Conditioner with euxyl PE 9010.pdf
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19 Replies
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Whenever you use Euxyl PE 9010, make sure to see how much water you are actually using, let’s say you use 50g of water, the amount of PE 9010 you will need should be about 0.5g. It has always worked for me while I’ve used it along with Propanediol/Glyceryn and even Butylene/Propylene Glycol. Good luck.
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Thank you for this Yuno. So you use Euxyl at 1% of your water phase when you work with it? Do you happen to know how much glycerin/propanediol would be required in order to make sure the preservative would stay soluable if using it at cool down in an emulsion like this?
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In foundations I usually use Glycerin at 3% and Propanediol at 2%. Depends on what endpoint do you wanna reach
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isothiazolinone (MCIT) is a better primary preservative for this product - and you should have two, not just one.
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Thanks Phil. I’m avoiding the MIT preservatives right now unfortunately. I suspect they are contributing to my itchy scalp issue (I can’t be 100% sure about this but have had improvement since avoiding commercial products using them). Is there another preservative you’d recommend to use in addition to Euxyl or in place of? I was leaning toward it because it’s used in 2 products I tried that I’ve tolerated better than others, but sure open to your thoughts.
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1. Remove chelating agent! It is anionic and will bind with your cationic surfactant. => insoluble substances / instability.
2. Is it just for you? I assume you have short hair? Conditioners are being applied to the lengths and ends, not to the scalp.
3. Euxyl PE 9010 is relatively easy to work with - as this is emulsion, you can add anytime. It is heat stable (up to 120° if I remember correctly), so can be added into water phase or mix properly during/after cooldown phase.
4. You may want to support this preservative with something against mold/yeast.
5. final pH 4 - 4.5
6. Listen to Phil!
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Hi @Paprik
I wondered this about using Disodium EDTA in a conditioner, but I see that it is used by many of the big brand conditioners, such as Pantene, TRESemmé, VO5, L’Oréal, Suave, and others. Is it just being used at a smaller rate or are they doing something particular to incorporate it without inhibiting stability?
Thank you!
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I (or we) have noticed that too. My guess would be it is part of a blend material, so they need to list it. I would maybe understand if it is solid bar product, but in emulsion not so much.
From chemical point of view it does not make sense to add that.
Unless someone thinks/knows otherwise.
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Ah interesting!
1) I had thought a chelator was helpful to boost the preservative effectiveness. I didn’t realize it would actually work against it here causing insoluabilty problems. Thanks for this.
2) Yes this for my own use but I have longer, very tangle prone hair and typically use conditioner on my scalp as well, both for dryness and tangles.
3) If mixed into the water phase, would that eliminate the need for using glycerin/propanediol? I’d like to start with just a basic emulsion so I can better judge how the addition of ingredients work for me.
4) Any thoughts on what to use to support Euxyl or would you recommend something different altogether?
Thanks again for sharing.
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Hi @Camel
1) Yes, in non-ionic or anionic systems chelating agent support the preservative. So use it as often as possible (mind ingredient that cannot be used with it - such as copper peptides etc … )
2) I see … that makes sense then.
3) Yes, you do not need use glycerin/propanediol. For solubility at least. The product should be thick enough to hold the Euxyl dispersed (if not all dissolved). Starting with basic emulsion is the best approach. Usually formulators start with a looot of ingredients and fail.
4) I would use something like Liquid Germal Plus. Or add something that helps Euxyl with its weakness against fungi/mold. I am not really preservative guy; @PhilGeis is the God.
Your emulsion is already nice, simple, easy. Try it and see. You may need to increase waxy material to build viscosity. You can add a bit of protein; fragrance if desired and you should be fine.
Hope this helps 🙂 Happy formulating.
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This is extremely helpful, thank you Paprik. I’ll start with Germall and see how my scalp does. A much better option than risking something not properly preserved I’m sure & it will allow me to get started while learning more. I greatly appreciate your input!
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0.05% EDTA would increase the viscosity a bit.
Use this preservative at 1% of total formula. Not 1% of water phase.
I would also recommend CMI or dmdm hydantoin
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Yes thanks for the percentage recommendation. The edta does confuse me a bit where it is recommended by Schulke in the conditioner doc attached above, but then again it also looks like there is sufficient coverage with 1% PE 9010 and no edta.
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If phenoxy - be sure to add ethyl hexyl glycerine
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Thank you Phil! Where PE 9010 has both, would that mean an additional preservative wouldn’t be necessary to cover any potential gaps in a simple emulsion like this?
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Nah he was probably making a joke due to its INCI
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Meant as a rule of thumb. I’d reco additional, more water soluble preservative.
btw - i meant in ref to isothiazolinone, CMIt (chloromethyl-) not MIT. If it makes a difference to your policy position.
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Ah I hadn’t even thought of the difference between MIT and CMIT. I lumped them together in my thought because the products I’ve tried had both together but now really curious if it’s only one that I *suspect* difficulty with. Neither of these have bothered me in the past and I used them for years without issue, so I’m not even sure the preservatives are the problem.
I know it’s been so many questions and miles to go with learning here. Is there a particular more water soluble preservative you’d recommend to use with PE 9010 if I do trials with it?
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“Kathon CG” and similar isothiazolinones include both CMIT/MIT (`3:1), the latter (MIT) is an impurity from synthesis and present at an ineffective level. Only used in rinse off products, this is clearly the go to primary preservative in shampoos and conditioners.
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