-
Emulsifiers recommendation for facial cream
Happy Monday!
I’m looking at different emulsifiers for face cream and would like to know if you can share your favorites and why.
Several emulsifiers are approved in “green cosmetics” and that’s how I should work, ideally within the Eco-cert/COSMOS repository (sorry, haha).
I’ve been testing the simplest and most basic. 4-5% Olivem 1000 or Polyaquol 2w, with co-emulsifier cetearyl alcohol 2-3.5%.
All the tests, modifying the rest of the ingredients, changing the phase emulsifier, adjusting temperature processes, shear times, adding hydrated xanthan during cooling, etc. They all become too fluid and with bubbles after using the agitator. Both a bit soapy and not the best sensory.
Now I will buy Sodium Stearoyl Glutamate to add 0.25% and I want to buy more materials for testing.
In addition to the emulsifiers I mentioned above.
I’ve worked with previously: Montanov 68 (seems to be more occlusive), Glyceryl Stearate SE (never worked, I’ll buy it again, I think it came defective) and some PEGs that I can’t use now.
Co-emulsifiers: cetyl alcohol (more fluid than cetearyl so it doesn’t work for me), Stearyl alcohol (waxy sensation).
( ! )I know that the emulsifier is not the only important thing to recommend as thick and of quality, but there is a reason you choose one instead of the other.
Thanks!
-
17 Replies
-
Aloha… A few things. Most of us would not call a fatty alcohol a co-emulsifier. Don’t get me wrong…without them it is difficult to make a good robust emulsion. But based on the definition, and where they work (between the phases) they are better called ….. emulsion builders. They are often added as a component of an emulsifier….ala …. Mont 68 you mentioned. (Often used as a stretcher…to hit that 4 to 1 emulsifier to oil phase for potent emulsifiers.) They certainly have qualities associated with emulsification…ala cetearyl alcohol + Ceteareth-20…and so on. Sometimes used as the GMS type piece, based on some technical aspects.
You should make great steps forward with stability with the SSG.
The reason Glyceryl Stearate SE probably didn’t work for you….is that it requires a higher pH to function, and this is often left out of the seller’s propaganda material. Albeit it would NEVER use an emulsifier that needs a higher pH to function. I have skin! 😂
For a face product….I am almost always using Mont 202 as a starting point. Couldn’t have a more different haptic from M 68….which I agree….is heavy and occlusive feeling.
I typically use M 202 + 165 + kiss of anionic (PCP or SSG). I know the middle piece will preclude you…but this always makes bulletproof magic. Not sure if PCP (Potassium Cetyl Phosphate) fits into agenda based formulating…but if it does….certainly one to look at! SSG can be used at lower pH’s than PCP.
Good luck.
-
This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by Graillotion.
-
Great! Thanks for the clarification.
GS SE is described as having a pH between 5 - 7. Are you sure about the high pH? I’ve seen this used a while back, by a professor who is a chemical engineer. 😮
PCP is not available where I live unfortunately.
I’m also looking into GSC (Glyceryl Stearate Citrate), it seems like an interesting option as a robust emulsifier.
I’ll keep trying! Thanks for the support.🙋♀️
-
😂 It will be a little difficult to help you….if you believe what is written on the internet by sellers and manufacturers. 😂 Take a close look at GMS SE … and put your chemistry hat on…and ask why they list it as anionic?
Basically, they are trying to make a potassium stearate soap out of it. Put your soap making hat on…how do you make soap? Yup with pH. I’ll let you decide what pH it takes to make that into an anionic soap…. no fun if I spoon-feed you the answers. Ask yourself….why didn’t it work….when you used it? 😉
Stearic acid is non-ionic…but becomes mildly anionic once it is saponified.
BTW… GSC is not a robust emulsifier. A decent emulsifier, that usually feels good. The SSG & PCP…. you can use the words ‘robust’ with. 🙂
Read last sentence of attached file….they hint towards reality. 😉
-
Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhh….wait. I think you are confused (re-read your comment). Almost all products will list the effect it has on the pH of a formula. THIS IN NO WAY OR MEANS….what is the functional range. This is a set of numbers provided to the formulator….to show them what adding this product will do to an established pH….so they can be prepared and can act accordingly. Just about EVERY quality ingredient provider will provide this information….if their product will influence formula pH.
pH that is operates best at…. in the formula…. is a completely different topic. They don’t like to tell you that….as it can possibly limit sales to those that don’t have full chemistry skills.
-
This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by Graillotion.
-
This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by Graillotion.
-
This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by
-
-
This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by
-
BTW…. as I was mowing the lawn….(time in which I do much pondering) …. I don’t recall that you have shown your formula. Bubbles in formulas can often come from a ‘reaction’ beyond just being introduced by equipment. You haven’t done anything crazy…. like putting baking soda in your formula, have you? Reactions can come from many ingredients…not just sodium bicarbonate and an acid.
-
I checked the safety data sheet and it mentions pH 8.5 (3% water), I attached the image.
I also read that it contains sodium stereate and/or potassium stereate which are high pH, am I correct? I partially understand what you are saying, but why would you not use this emulsifier on your skin if the final formula has a regulated pH that is safe for the skin? I am not defending it, I am just raising doubts, I am not familiar with the subject.
Besides, I did not write my formula because I have written it before on the forum and I have tested a lot, even the most puritanical ones, but speaking of sodium, I have used sodium benzoate as a secondary preservative in the tests (could this be it?!!) and I think I have used it in all of them!
I find it very curious that when use the stirrer the formula changes… tomorrow will be another day and I will go back to doing tests.
😰
-
Skin is acidic….across the board. It varies from location to location on your body….so anyone that says your skin is pH of _____. Doesn’t know much about skin. We abuse our skin and the acid mantle with frequency, but fortunately it has coping mechanisms. However… it is best to keep the abuse to a minimum. This is why we rinse off soap after using it….and not leave it in place. Recovery time is longer than you think….measured in hours. This is why well-made skincare is typically on the acidic side of the scale…to keep your skin happy.
So back to your soap-based emulsifier… you are not understanding the chemistry… the reason your emulsion likely failed….. if you lowered the pH back to skin friendly…then you ‘un-made’ the soap. The emulsifier simply no longer works….if you lower the pH. A soap like that has to remain a soap, if you wish it to also remain an emulsifier…. can’t just take it there for 5 min…and then reverse the structure that makes it work.
Things like stearic acid…can be used as a non-soap. It will thicken an emulsion that is acidic, but won’t emulsify it. It will thicken AND emulsify, if you take it to a high enough pH (it becomes a stearate soap). I have seen lots of people become confused with this concept. You often see it presented incorrectly on the beginner blogger sites/schools.
-
This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by Graillotion.
-
This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by
-
-
-
“Albeit it would NEVER use an emulsifier that needs a higher pH to function. I have skin!”
Really? Just look at the INCI decoder, there most of the expensive products are based on Glyceryl stearate SE.
-
@Graillotion I have knowledge about the pH of the skin, I have no doubts about its importance.
I also understand now that if the emulsifier Glyceryl Stereate (or monostearate) SE is pH 8.5, being alkaline like a soap, this would unbalance the proper pH of the skin.
Now, like @ggpetrov I wonder how is it possible that a large majority of professional creams use this emulsifier without that premise of damaging the skin due to pH?
When I mentioned that I have seen a teacher (who is a chemist and not from the internet, just in case), work with this emulsifier, as always the final pH is evaluated and it is in accordance with the skin of the face. Why then does it emulsify and also have a final pH close to 5?
We agree that the industry can be misleading to sell raw materials.
_____
Regarding the question you asked me about the sodium content in a cream, do you know anything about the alteration of an emulsion by adding sodium benzoate? (I know it’s not a professional preservative, don’t be mad haha).
-
This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by nkpalaci.
-
The first thing to know is that glyceryl stearate is not a soap (like sodium stearate), but an ester.
Now, skin “acid mantle” is a semi-solid (with crystalline domains), the same as creams that are usually applied on the skin. That makes the concept of pH less relevant as opposed to liquid solutions, so I wouldn’t worry that much. Perhaps the pH range for this emulsifier has more to do with the risk of hydrolisys during product’s shelf life.
-
This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by
-
Hi there,
Most of the reputable suppliers in Europe do say, more or less, something like this regarding the GS SE “The pH value of the emulsion is optimally between 6.8 and 8.2 and thus already in the slightly alkaline range. You can still achieve stable emulsions with a ph-value of 5.5 if you combine it with other emulsifiers. GSC palm oil free is suitable here.
But also gel formers, like Xanthan transparent or Xanthan Cospaderm X34 with an input concentration of 0.2-0.4% or fatty alcohols, which stabilise the water phase, allow to lower the ph-value to ph 5.5 with a little lactic acid.“
Also, reading this thread might help https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/how-is-this-formula-its-so-soapy-and-its-ph-is-8/
-
Interesting,
It seems that this controversial emulsifier, even though it is called SE, must be used with others. At that pH value, nobody would want to destabilize a formula that much, I think.
well, I’m just learning…
It is probably used a lot because it is very cheap, in a store the cost is 5kg for $40 us haha!
thanks for your comments!
-
I would go cold process emulsifier formulate gel-creme and add PGA (Poly Glutamic Acid) my , better than HA.
Dont you think Glyceryl Stearate SE is a bit out dated?
-
This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by catherine.pratt.
-
Just stirring the pot…..
-
Thanks @catherine.pratt 🙂 , I’m not looking for a gel cream for now, but it sounds interesting, I’ll look into that.
I’m not really too interested in GSC SE, especially after the conversation in this thread. I’ve only seen it so much that I wanted to try it, I won’t buy it anymore, I asked more out of curiosity.
Thanks to everyone for their interest, I study day by day because now I have the opportunity, I appreciate a group like this. When I have good news I will leave an update here.
-
-
This reply was modified 4 months, 2 weeks ago by
-
-
Glyceryl stearate SE is still one of the best emulsifiers on the cosmetic market, and one of the best to get very stable lamellar phases. I don’t think these old materials get outdated (just ask guys like P&G, UL, L’Oreal and the likes, who spend millions of dollars on research and have the best cosmetic scientists, and yet still use very “old” ingredients 🙂).
-
Hi everyone! Follow up to the thread.
https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/update-emulsifiers-and-bubbles/
😄
Log in to reply.