-
How to increase lather in syndet bar
Hi there, I’m experimenting with creating a syndet body bar (I have Dove’s Beauty Bar in mind).
I have started with Marie’s formula for a Lavender Facial Cleansing Bar on Humblebee, but would like to adjust it so it 1) has more lather, and 2) it lathers more quickly.
Here is the formula I started with:
1% Xanthan Gum
2% Glycerine
15% Cocamidopropyl Betaine
50% SCI (powder)
2% Salt1.25% BTMS-80
20% Stearic Acid
7.25% Cetearyl Alcohol0.5% Fragrance
1% Preservative (Geogard 221)Any tips or suggestions greatly appreciated!
-
5 Replies
-
Well Dove’s Beauty bar uses around 25% stearic acid. I do not know who gave you that formula or why xanthan gum is needed. Remove it along with the glycerine. You need Sodium Stearate at around 2%. You should use a secondary powdered surfactant and use the actual 10% Saponified Soap Dove uses. Processing is difficult with the added soap and it must be compressed at around 40C. It will however make your bar last a whole lot longer. If its for facial use you can skip it.
1% Xanthan Gum (Remove)
2% Glycerine (Remove)
15% Cocamidopropyl Betaine (Drop to <12%)
50% SCI (powder)
2% Salt (Why? Remove)
1.25% BTMS-80 (Remove) Use Polawax if you want to add an emulsifier
20% Stearic Acid
7.25% Cetearyl Alcohol
0.5% Fragrance (Add it to Silion Dioxide/Aerosil 200 to help maintain the fragrance)
1% Preservative (Geogard 221)
-
This reply was modified 1 month ago by Cafe33.
-
This reply was modified 1 month ago by
-
Hi,
Just took a look at Marie’s formula, and she specifically mentions that this formula is inspired by Cerave’s Hidrating Cleanser Bar, and is intended to be less disruptive to the natural skin barrier.
The original list of ingredients is this: Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate, Stearic Acid, Aqua / Water / Eau, Sodium Isethionate, Ci 77891 / Titanium Dioxide, Cocamidopropyl, Hydroxysultaine, Potassium Phosphate, Ceramide NP, Ceramide AP, Ceramide EOP, Carbomer, Glycerin, Cetearyl Alcohol, Ceteareth-20, Dimethicone, Behentrimonium, Methosulfate, Sodium Chloride, Sodium Lauroyl Lactylate, Sodium Hyaluronate, Cholesterol, Phenoxyethanol, Disodium EDTA, Dipotassium Phosphate, Tocopherol, Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride, Petrolatum, Phytosphingosine, Xanthan Gum, Ethylene Brassylate, Cetyl Alcohol, Ethylhexylglycerin.
She kept what she belived will be easily available for most DIY-ers, and also she explained why every ingredients is in there.
You could easily choose a different benchmark for your bar.
The version suggested by @Cafe33 will be a bit (or more?) harsher than Marie’s, but since you’re going for more foam vs less harsh, it might be what you need.
-
Thanks For Sharing
-
The Cerave product likely uses an ingredient blend called SK-Influx from Evonik (Aqua (and) Carbomer (and) Cholesterol (and) Ceramide AP (and) Ceramide EOP (and) Ceramide NP (and) Methylparaben (and) Phytosphingosine (and) Propylparaben (and) Sodium Lauroyl Lactylate (and) Xanthan Gum). That’s why the carbomer and xanthan are present. I guess in theory someone could add more xanthan on top but I doubt it would function well/provide anything meaningful to the product. Just be careful not to take hobbyists word (or anyone’s really) as truth without doing your own research, the hobby formulator didn’t know why xanthan was included so she ‘found’ a reason. @Cafe33 ‘s suggestions make sense to me, true soaps produce lather much faster and creamier bubbles than many conventional surfactants. If you dilute your product 25-50% what is the pH? I’m not sure the geogard 221 is a good preservative choice for this kind of product, especially if you do include true soaps.
-
I agree that you don’t need the salt. I don’t know if that was in Marie’s formula, but it’s not normally in syndet bars, nor is the gum. If it was in the bar she was duping, it was probably part of a mixed ingredient the manufacturer used (ie: an ingredient WITH ingredients) so sometimes weird stuff ends up in commercial stuff. There IS a liquid salt (I’m using the word salt in the chemistry-way not the food-way here) people like to use in syndet bars to help harden the bars-sodium lactate. It’s not too dear. It also happens to be a good humectant.
The glycerine probably isn’t a problem unless you live in a super humid climate and tend to leave your bars in a puddle. It will draw some atmospheric moisture to the bar but it won’t be all that dramatic at 2%-probably not even noticeable.
I personally think the BTMS is fine-it adds some conditioning. This could easily be a shampoo bar, yes, but skin also likes BTMS-it’s a double duty emulsifier. All of my syndet bars are conditioning shampoo bars that I also use for my body. Our skin also has a negative charge. (BTMS in lotion tends to be a love or hate kind of thing but is less noticeable in a syndet bar, at least for me.) And in a syndet bar you actually can combine cationic and anionic ingredients. Things can’t precipitate out of solution if they’re actually a solid. 🙂
Generally folks do use more than 1 solid anionic detergent surfactant. I often see SLSa in that slot but it’s not really necessary if you want to keep the bar extra super-mild. Nothing else is as mild and wonderful as SCI in my opinion. But if you find you need more cleansing power, add some SLSa to your formula. It’s relatively mild and it’s close to pH neutral so you won’t have the headache of correcting pH like you would with some of the other solid surfactants.
Technically the CIR has approved SCI for up to roughly 50% use-but that’s all they tested it for. They didn’t test higher concentrations. A lot of folks actually do use it at higher concentrations. Since it’s baby-gentle, it’s hard to imagine that being a problem.
Cocamidapropyl betaine (CAPB) is a perfect liquid detergent surfactant to use here and you can use that at up to 20-25%. Some prefer to use less because they find their bars to be sticky. In that case you could use a glucoside like coco glucoside at 10% and the CAPB at 10-15% but because it’s alkaline, it may increase the pH. You can also try to use less liquid surfactant. Sometimes it’s good to experiment on our own. Always make small bars at first!
Personally I’d use 60-70% solid surfactants, 20-25% liquid surfactants, cetyl alcohol instead of stearic acid or cetearyl alcohol because cetyl is not draggy like stearic acid, hardens the bar nicely, and gives a luxurious feel. It’s also quite inexpensive. I always love luxury at bargain prices.
Other ingredients you can use at your own discretion: hair and skin both love 1-2% protein but that’s an expensive ingredient so you might wait until you’ve perfected your bar otherwise. I also like to use about 3-5% betaine (aka trimethylglycine) which is great for skin and scalp. 1-2% panthenol is also great for both skin and hair and is anti-inflammatory in nature. And you can use probably up to 10% of a solid butter like shea or cocoa butter. This last ingredient is more controversial. Some people say it inhibits lather and gets immediately absorbed by the surfactant and rinsed away. I’ve also seen compelling arguments that there’s more to it than that. It can increase the mildness of the bar, do some very minor conditioning, and add to the luxurious sensation when bathing. If you like the idea, experiment with it. It’s YOUR syndet bar. And it’s not going to hurt you.
I love Marie but if you want to learn from someone who is more evidence-based, you might try looking at SwiftCraftyMonkey AKA Susan Barclay Nichols. She runs a blog and it’s subscription-based but you get a lot of info for a little bit of money-well worth it. It’s a little bit all over the place, kinda scattershot, but you can go down rabbit holes to your heart’s content because she’s been blogging for almost 20 years. She also writes ebooks that are very helpful deep dives on specific topics. At one of her subscription tiers you get an ebook every month-sometimes it’s her newest one, sometimes it’s free choice to pick one of her older ones. She also gives out discount coupons every month for some of the major formulation-related retailers at that tier and answers some questions. It’s pretty frustrating trying to find good solid info on the topic of formulation. Susan’s blog is the best source I’ve found so far, short of going back to get another degree, which I don’t really want to do… again.
The most important thing you can do when making syndet bars is heating the ingredients to 70C/158F. It may look fully melted before it reaches that temperature, but that’s not the whole story. There’s a thing with crystal formation that’s temperature related. If you know about tempering chocolate you might know what I’m talking about. The fatty acids can settle into 3 different crystal arrangements and only one of them is desirable. So, heat your stuff to that temp and then after you get your bars in their molds, put them in the freezer. That also helps the crystal formation.
This got long… good thing I type fast. If you have any specific questions I’ll try to answer them if you want. But it may take me a while to remember to look back. I’m very very bad at keeping up with online stuff.
Log in to reply.