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Concentration extract confusion
Hello,
I would like to make a serum and i have a few questions.
I want a serum with 15% oat extract in it.
I contacted the chemist that formulate the serum and they said that they have an oat extract with 2% of oat.So, can we put 15% of the oat solution (2%) in my serum and say that we have a 15% oat extract?
Or 15% oat extract means 15% of raw oat?
I am a little confused and it would be great if someone can enlight the problem.
Thank you so much.
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19 Replies
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So, can we put 15% of the oat solution (2%) in my serum and say that we have a 15% oat extract?It depends on what your description is or how you market it.
In the case of some misleading marketing practices, some companies market their products as 90+% or up to 100% Hyaluronic Acid in serum form. While it is misleading since it refers to a 90+% Hyaluronic Acid solution being used, some people still fall for it thinking that it is “better” than one that list the raw material in the powder percentage, for example 1%. Same case as snail mucin.
15% of a 2% oat liquid extract is just 0.3% of oat extract (raw solids).
Though is there any cases where oat extracts are required in such a high percentage?
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Thank you for your answer jemolian!
Yes it is pretty misleading for the consumers.
But as a consumer how do you know if they use 90% of a solution extract instead of 90% of raw extract ingredient? For example for green tea, snail mucine, propolis …
Do companies have the right to do that? Don’t we have an organization that control these kind of misleading information?Yes I saw a lot of products that use a high percentage of oat extract.
For example in Oat so simple moisturizer from Krave beauty. They say that they use 79.8% of oat extract. In this case, it’s mostly likely that they use a solution of oat extract right? So we don’t know the pure concentration of raw oat right?INGREDIENTS: Water, Butylene Glycol, Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride, Squalane, 1,2-Hexanediol, Behenyl Alcohol, Ammonium Acryloyldimethyltaurate/VP Copolymer, Avena Sativa (Oat) Meal Extract, Ethylhexylglycerin
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But as a consumer how do you know if they use 90% of a solution extract instead of 90% of raw extract ingredient?
Most consumers won’t really know much about the original form of the ingredients, so it’s easy to mislead them in that way. Though for the extracts you have listed
- Green tea is normally a solid powder extract. There can also be premade liquid extracts for easier use.
- Snail mucin can be a liquid extract since it’s a ferment, or uncommonly a powdered version
- Propolis is normally a solid extract, but may be liquid if solubilized
In regards to the Krave product, it’s common for korean companies to just add some oat extract (example in powder form) into a solution can call it an extract, then use that solution for label claims as 70+%. The previous examples i had mentioned are most of the time happening for asian products, more so happening with korean products.
You can see that the actual oat amount would be 2nd last in the list. If it were really 70+%, it would be the first ingredient. It is possible for extracts to be used in large amounts, for example in SK-II, where the ferment is the first ingredient, though we don’t know the actual solids or concentration, because it’s naturally a liquid extract in origin, where is can be ready diluted. Though normally for ferments, if you are looking at various ingredients, the use rates are only about up to 2%, sometimes 10% depending on use case. It’s hard to say for sure how much you are getting per say in any case unless the company mentions.
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Just take a look at the LOI … Oat Meal Extract is near the bottom of the list, so it is probably included at 1% or less … That said, 79.8% Oat Extract makes little sense.
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A typical plant extract that you purchase from manufacturers is comprised of 8% plant extract and 92% solvent (Water, Glycerin, Butylene Glycol, etc.). If you include the extract at 1% in the formula, the amount of actual plant extract in the formula is 0.08%
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Thank you for the answers @jemolian @MarkBroussard
For the Krave beauty product, the oat extract is listed as the first ingredient in the korean website. And the second last in the Us website. So I guess US norms are stricter than the Koreans ones. I wonder if you know about the EU norms?
Inci list (Korean website):
Oat extract (766,268ppm), Butylene Glycol , Caprylic / Capric Triglyceride , squalane , 1,2- hexanediol , trehalose, behenyl alcohol , ildi methyl taurate / ammonium acrylate V Pico polymer
The Skii essence has good ingredients concentration but it is so expensive lol -
Actually I want to make a pure vitamin C (Laa) serum in a concentration of 10% with a Ph at 3.3.
+ salicylic acid 0.5%
+ antioxidants & soothing ingredients like ferulic acid, vitamin e, panthenol, zinc, oat extract, licorice root extract ~ 1-2%It’s for normal to oily skin. And it’s supposed to be soothing as well.
What do you think of my actives ingredients list? Should I add or delete some ingredients? Is my vitamin C serum hard to formulate?I know that vitamin C is very unstable. So, I choose to put the serum in a 2ml glass amber ampoule.Thank you again!
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For the Krave, the US ingredients listing would likely be used fpr the EU.
For the Vit C serum, i think the chemist you work with is able to answer your questions regarding the technical portions, more so about the stability.
Personally, i’d expect to have the Salicylic Acid in a separate product, unless there’s a specific reason to be added into the serum. It would potentially increase the irritation that the a consumer might experience. Some people use a vit c serum twice daily, but a BHA product once per day or sometimes a few times only per week. You might be restricting your customers’ frequency of use.
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I am currently choosing the manufacturer and the chemist. And I am choosing one that has some experiences formulating ascorbic acid serum but there’s not a lot. They usually formulate with its derivatives.
You are right, it might be irritating for some people. I was inspired by the skinceuticals vitamin c silymarin which has 0.5% of salicylic acid and the la roche posay C10.
I am thinking of switching the salicylic acid to a PHA ( gluconolactone) which is less irritating and also has some antioxidant benefit. What do you think?
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You will need to ask yourself if the combination makes sense in terms of your claims, frequency of use, packaging, and volume of product. It depends on how you intend your customers to use your products.
For example, are you intending to package it as
- a 30 pieces, 2ml ampoule for a basic LAA serum set for daily use
- a 12 pieces, 2ml ampoule for a LAA + GDL or SA, exfoliation set for thrice a week
The intention of use, frequency, and how you create the product set is very different, thus affecting the sales and prices of the products.
Alternatively, you can just use a willow bark extract for claims if the pH range is suitable.
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Skinceuticals would not have included Vitamin C (LAA) + 0.5% SA and releaseing it to the public without doing considerable research. Review their use recommendations for the Silymarin CF … it is marketed as a daily use product.
As for packaging, you should be just fine with a 30ml bottle, unless you want to use the ampoules for marketing purposes, but that will be substantially more expensive than a 30ml dropper bottle.
You would not be able to use the combination LAA + Ferulic Acid + Vitamin E as that is patented by Skinceuticals. Note that Silymarin replaces Vitamin E in the Silymarin CF formula.
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The serum will be used daily, in the morning or night. Most of 2ml ampoules are marketed to be used two times but in reality we can used more than that. In Europe, there are a lot of brands that sell vitamin C ampoules such as Vichy, Martiderm.. They packaged 10 ampoules and 30 ampoules for 10 days and 1 month of use which means two applications per day.
In my case, I want to package in five ampoules, it’s for daily used with one application per day, so it can last for ten days. The reason I put five and not ten is to fit the budget of a majority of people and it’s the range of price that people spend the most.
I would love to know your opinions/critics in my five ampoules set.I read the study done my skinceuticals for the CE ferulic (15% LAA) and like you said, it’s patented. So, we are not allowed to use the exact concentration of vitamin C, ferulic acid and vitamin E. For us, we use a different percentage of vitamin C (10%), ferulic acid and vitamin E. Thus, it won’t be a problem right?
Personally, when I use a 30ml serum, i never finished it because it has oxidized after half of the bottle. So, I prefer pure vitamin C serum in a small format like 2, 5 and 10ml.
I think the two ml format is convenient for the users. It has some advantages like travel friendly, we don’t have to worry about the oxidation but it’s more expensive to produce, you have to be careful since it’s made of glass…Thank you so much for yours comments, it really helps me a lot
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Model96 said:I read the study done my skinceuticals for the CE ferulic (15% LAA) and like you said, it’s patented. So, we are not allowed to use the exact concentration of vitamin C, ferulic acid and vitamin E. For us, we use a different percentage of vitamin C (10%), ferulic acid and vitamin E. Thus, it won’t be a problem right?
Yes, that would be a problem. The patent covers the combination of Vitamin C, Ferulic Acid and Vitamin E each in a range of percentages, not just those specific amounts that are actually used in the product. It also covers the pH range of the product, so you are tempting fate of a patent infringement lawsuit if you try using that combination.
As for as packaging, that is a decision somewhat separate from the product development itself and is more of a marketing decision.
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I just read on the US patent website and like you said the patent covers a combination of vitamin C, E and ferulic acid in a range of percentages. Also, it covers the ph range from 2.5 to 3.0 .
In my case, I will use a ph between 3.2 and 3.4 which is superior than the ph range patented. So, I will not have any issues.
There are many brands that have vitamin C, E, ferulic acid such as Paula’s choice, timeless, geek&gorgeous, maelove… and they use a range of 15 to 20% of vitamin C and a ph from 2.5 to 3.2.
I don’t understand how some of these products can be in the market if theirs pH are between 2.5 and 3.0 . Maybe they are paying something to skinceuticals?Yes, you are right. The packaging is more a marketing decision.
As a professional chemist, have you ever formulate pure vitamin C serum? The ascorbic acid is unstable so it can be challenging to formulate. Generally, how long does it take to formulate? I know it depends on the product but maybe from your experience you know the average time that it takes to have a good formulation. Also, what are the biggest challenges that chemist face when formulating pure vitamin C?
Thank you so much!!
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@Model96: It may well be that those companies have a licensing agreement with L’Oreal, that is a distinct possibility. Or, perhaps they are just violating the patent and taking a chance that L’Oreal will not notice their products on the market, although a couple of people who work for L’Oreal have told me that they are aggressive in defending the patent.
Regarding the patent itself, there are several references in the patent that describe the pH as up to 3.5 with sub-claim of pH of 2.5 to 3.0. So, my interpretation from reading the patent is that it covers the combination of C, E & Ferulic up to pH 3.5.
Yes, I have developed LAA serums. Most all of the various formulations in the market are somewhat similar, but everyone has their own take on it. You’re looking at a typical product development cycle of 3 to 4 months if you’re looking at a formula similar to CE Ferulic.
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Model96 said:I just read on the US patent website and like you said the patent covers a combination of vitamin C, E and ferulic acid in a range of percentages. Also, it covers the ph range from 2.5 to 3.0 .
In my case, I will use a ph between 3.2 and 3.4 which is superior than the ph range patented. So, I will not have any issues.
There are many brands that have vitamin C, E, ferulic acid such as Paula’s choice, timeless, geek&gorgeous, maelove… and they use a range of 15 to 20% of vitamin C and a ph from 2.5 to 3.2.
I don’t understand how some of these products can be in the market if theirs pH are between 2.5 and 3.0 . Maybe they are paying something to skinceuticals?Yes, you are right. The packaging is more a marketing decision.
As a professional chemist, have you ever formulate pure vitamin C serum? The ascorbic acid is unstable so it can be challenging to formulate. Generally, how long does it take to formulate? I know it depends on the product but maybe from your experience you know the average time that it takes to have a good formulation. Also, what are the biggest challenges that chemist face when formulating pure vitamin C?
Thank you so much!!
I have personally been through countless bottles of Timeless Vitamin C serum. That serum is EXTREMELY stable and never oxidizes (at least, it doesn’t undergo ANY color change,) in the 2-3 months it takes me to go through a bottle.
It’s made in small batches, frequently, so that’s one part of the equation.
I think the biggest thing, though, is that they have replaced so much of the water in the product with glycols. I think this dramatically improves stability.
They package in an airless pump, but I used many bottles of it while they were still using dropper bottles, and even then, it never oxidized.
Might want to look at their formulation if you are worried about oxidization.
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Yes, I am sure that some companies violated the skinceuticals patent. And I guess they don’t want to sue small companies but only big ones like Drunk Elephant. I didn’t understand why they lost the lawsuit against Drunk Elephant. The patent is a US patent. So, does it include worldwide?
The pH range is quite confusing, some says it’s from 2.5 to 3.0 (thats why a lot of companies make their serum outside this pH range) and others from up to 3.5 .
I must understand more about the patent so I don’t violate it. But based on this information, it’s not possible to formulate a vitamin C serum with ferulic acid&vitamin E that works well on the skin. I thought a ph of 3.2 would be okay.
I have tried a lot of pure vitamin C serum and it usually lasts less than 1month and a half. And in the fridge a bit more than 2 months. I never tried the timeless serum but I heard really good reviews. It’s like the number one dupe of skinceuticals CE ferulic. I think for the best quality price pure vitamin C serum with ferulic acid&vitamin E, there are the geek&gorgeous C glow (super fresh, 13$ for 30ml) and Wishtrend pure vitamin C (available in 15% and 21.5%). Today I am using the skinceuticals phlorotin Cf and I notice that all of these serums have a similar and weird odor. ????
Apart from the ferulic acid and vitamin E, what do chemist usually use to stabilize the LAA? They are antioxidants like glutathione, ubiquinone but they are expensive ingredients.
Sodium hyaluronate is in almost all the vitamin serum, what it is for exactly? Is it for hydrating and soothing the skin because the serum is acidic?Thank you all for yours comments!
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To clarify, L’Oreal did not lose its lawsuit against Drunk Elephant … the parties settled out of court, meaning that they came to some equitable agreement that worked for both parties, perhaps a licensing deal.
The patent clearly states pH 3.5 with sub-claims of 2.5 to 3.0. If they did not intend for the patent to not cover embodiments of pH up to 3.5, they would not have included the several descriptions of the invention as having a pH of 3.5.
It is very common in patents to describe an embodiment of having a pH of up to 3.5, but also narrow down that range by claiming “pH of 3.5 or below, but more preferrentially a pH of 2.5 to 3.0.
Usually, you use glycols to help retard the oxidation of LAA … that “weird smell” if ethoxydiglycol, the most commonly used glycol for this purpose.
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@MarkBroussard than you again for your response
Oh I see and I must misunderstand it then.
I read a scientific paper and it says:
“Several strategies have been developed to limit these processes, among them: controlling the presence of oxygen during formulation and storage, low pH and reduction of water content through the use of anhydrous/nonaqueous formulations.The addition of preservatives such as antioxidants and anti-chelating agents also prevents the degradation of the Vit C. In this context, molecules such as ferulic acid and sodium metabisulfite have shown good results.”How can we control the presence of oxygen during formulation and storage? I suppose that we will add laa at one of the last step of the formulation. And what are your thought on sodium metabisulfute? I read that its usually combine with disodium EDTA to help the vitamin C stabilize better.
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