Compatibility of SLES, SLS & Polyquart-10

Formulating

Compatibility of SLES, SLS & Polyquart-10

Posted by Barrow on August 21, 2015 at 2:12 am

Hello

I am working on a formulation for a shampoo that has the following ingredients:

SLS- 8%

SLES- 21%,

CAPB- 6%

DEA- 2%

PEG 7- 3%

Polyquart- 10- 0.5%

Ciric acid qs and salt to thicken

Water- 56%.

But I am encountering a problem. The SLS and SLES are forming gel when I am adding to Poulyquart -10 solution. I am using a powder SLS which I am making into a 30%solution by adding it to water and heating. Then when I add it to the polyquart-10 solution it starts to form gel. Same thing happened when I added SLS powder directly to the Polyquart solution. Is SLS and SLES incompatible with Polyquart-10?

OldPerry replied 8 years, 5 months ago 10 Members · 13 Replies
13 Replies

Chemist77

Member
August 21, 2015 at 5:51 am

The anionic SLS & SLES cannot go together with Polyquart 10 which is basically a cationic HEC. Think you should try Polyquart H81, it is compatible I suppose.
belassi

Member
August 21, 2015 at 6:29 am

I agree, H 81 will work fine. I recommend using 1% to 1.5%
Bill_Toge

Member
August 21, 2015 at 7:12 am

you can’t directly add anionics to PQ-10, but an overall mix can be successfully done using a particular technique - details can be found on page 17 of this manufacturer’s brochure

for what it’s worth, 0.5% is quite a high level for PQ-10 generally, and particularly for this formula; you may struggle to achieve clarity
SZR

Member
August 21, 2015 at 8:37 am

Hi. I had encountered a similar type of problem, where the SLS powder formed gel when I added it to hot water. I did this to make a solution of SLS. Are there any incompatibilities of SLS with hot water. What is the correct way of making an SLS solution?
Barrow

Member
August 21, 2015 at 10:34 am

Hi
Thank you for your conments.
I cannot find poly H81 where I am. I am based in the UK. I contacted a supplier and they quoted me for Dehyquart H81( INCI name: PEG-15 polyamine). I was wondering whether polyquart H81 and Dehyquart H81 are the same?
chemicalmatt

Member
August 25, 2015 at 10:04 pm

Boy, hard to believe Amerchol got it wrong, which would NOT have happened a few years later when Union Carbide acquired them and they would have met the master of cationic polymer coacervation: Des Goddard. I refer to the order of addition here. Barrow, always disperse the Polyquat-10 into your water first, THEN always add the amphoteric next - CAPB in your case, though the disodium cocoamphodiacetate mentioned in the Amerchol lit works far better as a hydrotrope. Then add SLES, SLS, whatever anionic you may wish to have in there. Though 0.50% JR-400 might seem high for normal 2-in-1 conditioning shampoos, I’ve made ones for the ethnic hair-care market with much more than that. BTW, for a neat trick, add 1.0% sodium DDBSA to a gel made with 1.0% JR-30000. The coacervate gel you obtain is so dense it can be thrown around like a tennis ball.
Barrow

Member
August 26, 2015 at 4:43 am

Greetings,

I managed to incorporate Polyquart-10 and SLS into the formula and this is how I did it. I dispersed Polyquart-10 into water first and then added PEG-7. In a separate water I dispersed SLS and then added it to PEG-7, Polyquart -10 and water mix. Then I added SLES, BETAINE and DEA in that order followed by the rest of ingredients.

Chemicalmatt, I did this batch before your post but would try your suggestion too.

I used it on my hair and it foams quite well (like some of the premium shampoos) and hair feels soft and condtioned afterwards. However, there are too issues with this formulation: 1- It is irritating and 2- It caused a hair loss ( about 10-15). The ratio of SLES :SLS i am using is 7:3 (active ingredient). Could reducing SLS ratio have any effect on irritation and what is the best way to reduce or eliminate irritation while keeping both SLES & SLS? If that cannot be achieved I am happy to leave out SLS and increase SLES to maintain the good foaming if that is possible.
And what is causing the hair loss and how to stop it?

Your advice will be highly appreciated.

Thank you all.
manstra

Member
August 29, 2015 at 8:50 pm

Due to the high amount of SLS and SLES ( around 5 times more than your CAPB), CAPB cannot reduce successfully the irritancy even if you use PEG 7 as a reffating emollient. If you want the results of your original formula with lower irritancy potential, I would reduce SLS and SLES to 18% total and add Disodium Cocamphodiacetate at 5% extra on the ingredient list. Also swap DEA with Glyceryl Caprilate/Caprate or Amidet - N.
manstra

Member
August 29, 2015 at 8:51 pm

I always dillute P10 to betaine and add it later on in the process.
chemicalmatt

Member
September 2, 2015 at 7:55 pm

Better yet: drop the SLS altogether.Cationic polymer coacervation is better served with SLES as the anionic workhorse, maintaining a solids ratio of 1.5: 1 or so with the amphos and amides combined. You will experience less hair loss and better conditioning (the two are related right?). Only thing is your foam may not be as rich as before - no big deal if you ask me.
DavidW

Member
September 3, 2015 at 1:34 am

I find if you add water and then PQ10. Mix well maybe with a little heat. Mix till completely dispersed, then you can add you SLES, SLS or whatever slowly while mixing and no problem. Just remember to buy the same PQ 10 each time. Otherwise you will get varying viscosities.
BartJ

Member
August 10, 2016 at 9:16 am

@chemicalmatt

Matt, can I ask, where does something nonionic like Cocamide MEA fall into the order of addition?
I developed a habbit of always adding it first because of the biggest heat demands among the shampoo solids I tend to deal with.
OldPerry

Member
August 11, 2016 at 1:52 am

I added Cocamide MEA in the middle when the formula was heated up.