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Cloudiness in liquid soap…
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UPDATE!
I mixed 0.4
oz. of PEG-40 HCO paste with 0.8 oz.
Lavender EO and heated and stirred it until mixed. I heated up 17 oz.
of liquid soap stock I have that is thickened and unscented that I heated to
120F then added the fragrance to the liquid soap. It came out clear!
This was at 96 degrees!
I went back a few minutes later and this is what I found:
This was at 91 degrees and the bottle had begun to get
cloudy!Yesterday, 20 hours later:
Then the whole thing got cloudy! -
Adding to the above posted earlier today…Last night I went into my large file for my Liquid Soap project and read through everything! I usually try to collect as many formulations as possible but there weren’t too many. I did have a group of sources that mentioned that keep the superfat to 0% for this type of formulation to avoid clouding and I went in thinking that I should make sure that I had done it and I found the final formula with a note on it the there was a 2% superfat for the formula!So, this has got to be part of the problem and I will have to make a new batch to do my testing with 0% superfat in it! Today I looked at yesterday’s sample again to find that it had developed the same problem I had originally and that was clarity that is in the bottom portion and in this one is about 2″ of cloudiness on top!
In the upper left in the picture, you can see a very large white plastic storage bin in which the remainder of the thickened and unscented batch sits! I will be making a new formula which I adjusted last evening and working off of that! Nothing is easy! Back to the drawing board but at least I can address the superfat issue! -
I think your fundamental problem is the type of soap salts you have in there. For instance, a 30% potassium cocoate solution is a standard commercial item widely available. It is a clear low-viscosity liquid.
The very first thing I would have done, is to carefully examine the profile of whatever oils you’re saponifying and building a solubility table for each.
It appears to me that what’s happening to your soap is that one or more of the carboxylates is not very soluble and will only stay in solution at higher temperatures. I don’t think the problem can be readily solved unless you move to a more precise formulation, that is, saponifying only pure, free fatty acids, eg oleic acid, (but you’d first have to check the solubility, I have no idea) -
Belassi, Hi there!As you can see here:Ingredients: Water,
Cocos Nucifera (Coconut) Oil, Oleic
Acid, Ricinus Communis (Castor) Seed Oil, Potassium Hydroxide, PEG-150
Pentaerythrityl Tetrastearate, Glycerin, fragrance, Caprylyl Glycol, Phenoxyethanol,
Hexylene GlycolMy first oil is Coconut Oil which is in the highest percentage, then Oleic Acid is next and Castor Oil is the last because it contains Ricinoleic Acid which makes a very water soluble soap and assists with lathering. We’re at about a 3/2/1 ratio for the three and in your post it appears that “postassium cocoate” and “potassium oleate” are good choices and as I mentioned Castor Oil makes a soap that is very water soluble! I still wonder if the PEG-150
Pentaerythrityl Tetrastearate (Crothix) is part of the problem!Prior to the use of a solubilizer, my fragrances and essential oils worked fine at first but over time the clouding of the top 1″ occurred and the unfortunate choice of superfatting the batch has to have played a part in all this! I appreciate your input and I’ll take a look at your suggestions. Thanks!David
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and as an addendum, I have a document from David Steinberg called “showletter” which I’ve had for years that contains several liquid soap formulas including “hand soap” “real soap shampoo” and all the formulas are made with fatty acids!…just sayin’David
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and all the formulas are made with fatty acids!
- exactly. Not vegetable oils. -
As I said above, BelassiMy first oil in my formula is Coconut Oil which is in the highest percentage, then Oleic Acid is next and Castor Oil
is the last because it contains Ricinoleic Acid which makes a very
water soluble soap and assists with lathering. We’re at about a 3/2/1
ratio for the three and in your post it appears that “postassium
cocoate” and “potassium oleate” are good choices and as I mentioned
Castor Oil makes a soap that is very water soluble! I still wonder if
the PEG-150
Pentaerythrityl Tetrastearate (Crothix) is part of the problem!I spent the last hour trying to find a supplier for Coconut Fatty Acids which is much more difficult than I expected! I saw listings that showed it to be a liquid and several pictures of liquids of various colors - golden to darker shades - and one from Acme-Hardesty for a 5 gallon pail for $158.00 which was the only listing in the US! The rest were from India and some listed it as “distilled”!If anyone has any US sources in the North East of the US, I would appreciate hearing about them! Thanks!David -
@David08848 I think you may be going down a rabbit hole here. Belassi is making some good points that may not be super clear. I’ll try ro expand:
1) Fatty acids are not triglycerides, the first would be industrially refined and no longer attached to the glycerine backbone. So you would be able to buy high purity, reliable material. Some coconut and palm derived fatty acids: Stearic, Lauric, Capric and Caprylic Acids. This way you can avoid those that can’t solubilize at room temperature in their potassium salt form. However, if going this route you may be better off formulating a detergent-based wash. You can select for eco-cert options which are all naturally derived (but you’re already using PEGs so eco certification is out of the picture). If you decide to stick to true soap, you may need to live with the variability. Look at Dr. Bronner’s. They claim that their soap clouds at 70F, people may be ok with that. They’re also using basically all coconut oil. I threw a bottle in the fridge and it turned cloudy.
2) The above means that by using vegetable oils you have a mostly unknown mixture of fatty acids (now carboxylates in water after saponification). Depending on the crops/harvest the oils may have different compositions so your results can vary from batch to batch. Kinda like wine, each vintage is different even if the bottle has the same name.
3) Last but most importantly. Since the cloudiness seems related to temperature, I would be more inclined to think, like Belassi mentions, that it is some of the soap precipitating out of the solution. Do a test and dilute unscented soap 5:1, 4:1, 3:1 and add the solubilizer and oils (50g to 100g samples should suffice) . If they stay clear, it’s most likely the soap. The addition of the scent or the PEG-40 HCO is shifting down the solubility of at least one of the soaps, assuming the non scented version is completely clear at the same temperature. If you added the PEG-40 HCO and oil and it immediately turned cloudy, then it would be a matter of upping the solubiliser. Here it looks perfectly clear when warm. You also don’t need to warm your soap to add the scent and solubilizer mix. It basically emulsifies the oil into water, and emulsions are more stable at lower temperatures. Heating simply facilitates bond-breaking (increases solubility). In the case of liquid soap, heating promotes the release of the potassium ion from the carboxylates.I’m going out on a limb here but if adding the same amount of solubilizer without any of the fragrance also causes cloudiness it’s probably because there isn’t enough free water to bond to the soap molecules anymore, as other compounds are more readily hydrogen bonding.This would be easy to fix, simply dilute your soap a bit more (5-10% more water maybe) and add more Crothix if you want to achieve the same consistency (it may not thin out too much). PEG-40 HCO is a foam enhancer so you may not see much change in foaming after dilution, as long as there isn’t excessive essential oil. -
Luis, I appreciate your input. In my
business I create handcrafted soap, liquid soap but I also make men’s shaving
cream and men’s shaving soap which are made with fatty acids such as Stearic,
Palmitic, Myristic and Oleic and I have done lots of research to learn about
the fatty acid structure from low to high percentage to know exactly what to
use to create the products I want and need including soap from the beginning of
this project in 1998, but I don’t know everything. My goal is to create products as simple as
possible and as close to nature as possible but use ingredients that give the
product the characteristics that the customers want. I do wish to continue to make a soap-based
liquid soap and I am willing to include ingredients that will create the best
product possible even if some of them may not be considered natural. If that means using Fatty Acids in a liquid
soap formula, I am OK with that as I already use Oleic Acid as the middle of
the three I have selected and I can also use coconut fatty acid in my shaving
cream and my shaving soap so it would serve 3 purposes! But I have already found that finding a supplier,
or one that is willing to sell the quantities I need is not easy! If[DP1] it
means I have to use a not completely natural solubilizer to create the best-looking
product then I don’t have a problem with that either.Yes, I am aware of the differences in the
various oils out there but I have been fortunate in my choices of suppliers and
I have not found any raw materials that don’t behave the way that they should
even though there may be slight differences from lot to lot. Fatty Acids must meet the supplier’s requirements
and be within the correct range and I believe they can create a much more
consistent product than oils can.As far as the addition of PEG-40 Hydrogenated
Castor Oil is concerned, it is a paste at room temperature and has the consistency
of a “Vaseline” type substance. The meltpoint
of it is about 85-86 degrees F and my stock liquid soap has been around 70 degrees.
I heated the PEG-40 HCO to around 100 degrees to be able to incorporate
Lavender EO into it and I heated up the soap stock to around 100 degrees. After
stirring the EO/solidifier together and adding it to the top of the liquid soap
it sat on the top and had to slowly be stirred into the batch, which needed to
be reheated a little, to get it to completely mix into it.1. So, for me, I am still unsure what exactly
is causing the problem but I am aware of one possible problem and that is that
in my formula, I have a 2% “superfat”, yet in my research I have lots of
sources that indicate the a 0% superfat is what should be used in a liquid soap
because of the “clouding” that can occur if any superfatting is used! So I will correct that issue!2. I have
recently heard that there are some “inconsistencies” in using “Crothix” PEG-150
Pentaerythrityl Tetrastearate as far as variations in results so I am looking
into using PEG-150 Distearate. I am still
wondering if Crothix might be part of the problem.3. It was
also suggested that I might wish to try a blend of Polysorbate 20 and PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil4. It
was recommended that I might wish to try PEG-25 Hydrogenated Castor Oil which
has a lower meltpoint so I will be giving that a try.5. My last concern is whether the size of my oil/soap
phase might be too large at 24%/29.5% and this may be what you are
referring to in your last suggestion in your mention of “free water” and adding
a percentage of water that may aid if achieving a clear batch.As you pointed out, creating an “all natural” type
of may not be easy and there are those who send out warnings about that
temperature can change their product and that just goes along with the territory. Also, testing the solubilizers without
a fragrance might be a good idea as well and I had thought of that briefly but
it stuck more in my head after you said that!
Right now, I’m happy to look at all aspects, then narrow it down and
try, what I think are the right ones. If
I succeed then, great! If not, I’ll know
I did my best and that is all that matters to me!I appreciate your input, ideas and intelligence
and am grateful that everyone here was willing to share their idea, thoughts
and approaches! Thank you one and
all! Thanks Luis!David
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@David08848 it’s interesting that you mention your PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil is a paste. I would double check with your supplier because it may actually be PEG-20 Hydrogenated Castor Oil which is a paste at room temperature for what I have seen.
I did find online a brand that was selling a 2.2lbs bucket of PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor oil (main label) but when I read the INCI name in the back it said it was the PEG-20 version. For what I have seen (and what I have with me) PEG-40 will be an off-white or yellow honey-like liquid (not as crystal clear, but translucent), theirs was a paste.
Either way, both should work as solubilizers, just the PEG-20 would be less soluble in water and probably have a different efficiency.Polysorbate 20 works great too, not sure if it’s necessary to mix. But I did notice with a formulation I was making that adding polysorbate 20 thinned out my gel a bit.For thickness you could try PEG-120 Methyl Glucose Dioleate (sold by Lotion Crafter, Making Cosmetics, and others as some name with the suffix DOE, it’s a 10% active solution with 10% Methyl Gluceth-10 (humectant)). This is a liquid and easier to work with than PEG-150 Distearate which requires heating and in my experience took a bit to dissolve. Also some people here claimed it can make your formulation susceptible to temperature, turning like jelly at cold temperatures and water thin when warmer. I made a serum with it, threw it in the fridge and I didn’t observe any gelling, but your mileage may vary.
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Luis, a quick question! What temperature is it in the room that you saw, worked with or touched the PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil?
My workroom is between 68 and 72 degrees Fahrenheit! Many of the online pictures I have seen of PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil show it as a white paste! I just checked back at my email and PEG-20 Hydrogenated Castor Oil and it is described as “a clear liquid at Room Temp and a little below” which makes more sense to me since it would have a lower viscosity?
David
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@David08848 let’s see if other people here have knowledge of which one is the correct one. My room is also around 70.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/263037221124 <- can’t trust ebay too much though, but it’s consistent with my experienceI bought this one https://www.makeyourown.buzz/peg-40-hydrogenated-castor-oil/
A quick search on ulprospector shows that it’s liquid from this manufacturer: https://www.ulprospector.com/en/na/PersonalCare/Detail/29781/1462554/Hydrogenated-Castor-Oil-Ethoxylates—PEG-40-HCO?st=1&sl=90637683&crit=UEVHLTQwIEh5ZHJvZ2VuYXRlZCBDYXN0b3IgT2ls&ss=2
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The ebay one lists itself as “Ethoxylated” as does the ulprospector one but the other two don’t.
https://www.wisegeek.com/what-is-ethoxylation.htm -
@David08848 yes, even though not all listings mention it’s ethoxylated, the fact that it’s a PEG compound means they all are.
I hope you can figure out what’s causing the cloudiness with your soap!
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Let me make it simple:
1. Formula had a 2% superfat instead of recommended 0%
2. Crothix may be the problem - perhaps use PEG-150 Distearate
3. trying of a blend of Polysorbate 20 and PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil might be an option
4. try PEG-25 Hydrogenated Castor Oil which has a lower meltpoint
5. the size of my oil/soap phase might be too large at 24%/29.5%
Comments?
Thx, D -
My opinion on those:
1. The cloudiness due to superfatting probably would have been apparent even before adding the solubilizer, but may as well try 0% superfat.
2. Consider PEG-120 Methyl Glucose Dioleate instead of PEG-150 Distearate as is easier to work with and also a good thickener.3. Could try Polysorbate 20 alone too. That and PEG-40 HCO are benchmark solubilizers. You’ll notice that more moles of ethylene oxide on an oil makes them more water soluble.
4. PEG-25 HCO may have a lower melting temperature but won’t behave the same way. I suspect it’s used more often to emulsify heavier oils. Here’s a good reference I found https://www.ulprospector.com/documents/1599881.pdf?bs=29781&b=1462555&st=1&sl=90656870&crit=UEVHLTI1IEh5ZHJvZ2VuYXRlZCBDYXN0b3IgT2ls&r=na&ind=personalcare doesn’t hurt to try.
5. Your soap should be less than your oils because of the glycerine produced. But yes, diluting a bit further would be good to try. Maybe 1:4 saponified oil to water instead of 1:3. -
Luis, thanks for getting back to me on these.
1. Recalculated SAP values for formula last night - it is actually a 4% superfat! (rolls eyes
) have changed formula to 0% superfat.
2. Did find a reseller for PEG-120 Methyl Glucose Dioleate version: PEG-120 Methyl Glucose Trioleate (and) Propylene Glycol (and) Water - 4 lbs = $125! 😮 - still looking…
3. I have to take care of superfat first then go onto trying PEG-40 HCO again.
4. PEG-25 HCO and maybe blends of this and the other two but I have to check out the information and decide where to go with this.
5. In soapmaking arenas an “oil phase” IS the percentage of the oils in the formula but a “soap phase” is the amount of oils and the amount of hydroxides together… just different terminology and a different approach.In the soapmaking “arena” liquid soaps are made with a larger percentage of water and “cooked” (cringe!
) for at least 3 hours until it goes through several “phases”. I don’t use that approach and it takes me about 10 minutes using about a 66% of water to process the 33% of oils + lye then it is left overnight to finish saponification. The actually oil percentage in the finished formula is 24% and the water phase includes water and glycerin at a little bit over 60%.Since two fragrances, Musk and Rose do not show this problem at all, points a finger toward fragrance as being a major part of the issue but I think the “unsaponfied oils floating around” because of the superfatting are “interacting” in some way with the rest of the essential oils/fragrances oil making it easier for this problem to occur so I need to take care of the superfat first! A bucket of Oleic Acid arrived yesterday so I can get going on this soon then move onto the next step! My only other concern is the ratio of oils and at a 3/2/1 ratio of Coconut /Oleic/Castor may need to be looked at but I do have several old formulas with just Coconut oil in them or combos with Coconut Oil being the higher percentage over other oils such as Oleic Acid and Soy. Anyway, I would rather go into something with as much knowledge as possible and having done as much research as possible! You gotta know all the players! Thanks, Luis and everyone!
David
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Hi David, I wanted to share that there is a distributor here in Mexico for Coconut Fatty Acid, and it is 4.73 USD per Kg (with a MOQ of 1 kg). I know it is late in the conversation but I am following your thread.
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Hi! Thanks for following and sharing! If I did the calculations correctly, that would be about $2.15/lb. for the Coconut Fatty Acid with a minimum of 2.2 lbs. purchase. but coming from Mexico what would the shipping costs be?
I heard back from deWolf in Rhode Island (near where I grew up) and they have a minimum of a 55 gallon drum and others I contacted didn’t reply! What company in Mexico would this be so I could check it out?
I redid the formula for the liquid soap and made sure there was no superfat included in it this time! During this difficult time, I thought it was a good idea to work on all reformulation projects, completed the Shaving Cream final formulation a few weeks ago, the liquid soap formula last week and yesterday the Shaving Soap formulation so I will be trying all three soon and trying the PEG-25 Hydrogenated Castor Oil sample I received last week with one of the sample batches and see how it goes with the new liquid soap formulation. Thanks for your input, Cafe33!
David - Everyone, please stay well! -
I wanted to share the price info with you (I think you had mentioned 168 USD for 5 gallons?!) I do not know if they will ship to the USA.
Also, 4.73 USD was the price for 1 kg pack size. I have not inquired on larger pack sizes but from my experience, they can go down by 20% or so even purchasing as little as 5-10kg.
Either way, I have sent you the complete info by private message.
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