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Cationic emulsion
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@J4ckbird, I love natural products but maybe 90% natural s the rest maybe non-natural.
here is simple natural conditioning bar.
Bmts-50
cetyl alcohol
babassu oil or coconut oil ( I like Babassu Oil)
shea butter or cocoa butter
natural oils you like
apricot oil
essential oil (you like)Thanks for the feedback. I have seen similar recipes to the one you offered. I’m wondering what I can replace the BMTS-50 (which I think is a thickening/binding agent) and acetyl alcohol with. I’m using things like French clay and seaweed, with the butters and vinegar and playing around with it. So far its not terrible.
I’ve made a soap with chocolate fragrance and mint essential oil for Easter one year. People wanted to eat it, but it was a great soap. I called it hot chocolate!
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J4ckbird said:I am trying to make an all-natural conditioning bar. Can you suggest any natural ingredients that may give a similar performance?
@J4ckbird The only thing i can think of for that would be maybe something like aloe juice/powder 2 , honey, h20, cocnout milk/powder and some oils but for an emulsifer i would know where to to lead to you that “All Natural” you can always use a thickner like xantham gum but make sure you use a preservative and a good one as these ingredients are hard to preserve if used in there food form like the milks, aloe juices, etc and there are NO “Natural ” reservatives sucb as vit E etc. This could be something you made a small batch of and kept refrigerated and used within 2 weeks. Would deff need to be a personal short shelf life formula. Conditioner is pretty much lotion with a bit of a surfactant. If your referring to “natural” paraban and sulfate free now thats possible.
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@J4ckbird If you want it “natural”, which is not a defined term, replace BTMS-50 (which is a cationic emulsifier) to beeswax. But it will not be conditioning. You need 15 to 20% to make it solid. But again, don’t expect to get a good performance with “natural” ingredients. “Natural” essential oils are much worse than any not “natural” cosmetic ingredients you can think of.
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@Jdawgswife76, there are plenty of ” natural” emulsifiers. But the product described above is a conditioning bar (aka large lip balm). If you add water, honey etc, it will become an emulsion.
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So i decided to try this tell me what you think please.
H20 59.9%
Glycerin 8%
Aloe Juice 8%
Panthenol 1%
Coconut powder 1%Cetyl Alcohol 3%
BTMS 5%
Cocnut oil 2%
Vitam E oil 2%
Castor Oil 2%
Avocado Oil 2%Dimethicone 5%
Germall plus 0.05%
Jupiner E/O
Lavender E/O -
@Jdawgswife76
1) 8% of glycerin is extremely high. The product will be very sticky. Reduce to 3% max, and if you want more humectants, get butylene glycol and 1,3 Propanediol. The last one is reducing tackyness of glycerin.
2) Aloe.. use it until you discover polymer emulsifiers, once you do, you going to hate it
3) Panthenol is a “claim” ingredient. Doesn’t do anything. You can keep 1% or can reduce to 0.1% and save money on the material.
4) Coconut oil isn’t good for face. It is too heavy. Consider substituting it to something else (babassu maybe).
5) There are two types of Vitamin E: Tocopherol - antioxidant that is used to prevent oils in your lotion from getting rancid. Do not use more than 0.2% or it will act as pro-oxidant! Tocopheryl Acetate - an active ingredient for skin benefits. You can use up to 5% if you wish, but usually it is used around 1%.
5) Dimethicone looks a bit high to me. Nothing is wrong with it, but try to reduce to 2-3% and see if the product is occlusive enough.
6) The recommended usage rate of Germall plus is from 0.1 to 0.5%. You have 0.05%, maybe it’s a typo?
7) EOs… I personally avoid them in face products. They all are either phototoxic, or cytotoxic or both. If you want to use it, try not to go over 0.2% -
Idk how this got into this post i meant to post in hair conditioner post. So nothing will be used on my face and meant 0.5 on tje germal plus
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The dimethicone is recomended at a 1-5 but have heard everywhere funtions better at a 6% for hair even the manufcturer usage recomendations .
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What do you think for a Hair Conditioner?
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Yes this is the right post up top is the conditioner post i was going to try for ALL natural but changed my mind
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Dtdang said:This idea of cocoa butter + orange essential oil was from
@ngarayeva001
i made lotion with cocoa + orange essential oil
it smells great! I love itI have a bit of experience with essential oils and yes they are fabulouse for smell and other actives.. .. They are used in 80% cosmetics for smell.
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Sorry, it looks like a lotion to me. Ok, if it’s a hair conditioner, you can keep EOs, 5% is a good amount of dimethicone (you can add cyclomethicone next time when you have it), you still should reduce amount of vitamin e. Now the crucial part (and why I thought it’s a lotion) - you need a good amount of cetearyl alcohol. I would say 5%. You can keep Cetyl as you have it at 3%, and the most important, don’t use more than 0.5% of oils. Grab any commercial product in a store and you will notice that oils are listed somewhere near preservative (means very low % is used). Oils in hair conditioner are for claims only. Be careful when you melt your oilphase, heat it slowly.
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You can also add 1-1.5% of Cetrimonium Cloride (conditioning ingredient) or Polyquartenium 10 (also conditioning, but I don’t have experience with this one, so can’t advise on %).
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PQ-10 0.5%
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ngarayeva001 said:Sorry, it looks like a lotion to me. Ok, if it’s a hair conditioner, you can keep EOs, 5% is a good amount of dimethicone (you can add next time when you have it), you still should reduce amount of vitamin e. Now the crucial part (and why I thought it’s a lotion) - you need a good amount of cetearyl alcohol. I would say 5%. You can keep Cetyl as you have it at 3%, and the most important, don’t use more than 0.5% of oils. Grab any commercial product in a store and you will notice that oils are listed somewhere near preservative (means very low % is used). Oils in hair conditioner are for claims only. Be careful when you melt your oilphase, heat it slowly.
Ok so the BTM 50 CETYL and cetearyl for oil phase? I made it nd i turned out pretty good cojld have been better for the detangling and slip. I have dry hair thays why i though the oils would be good because they do work VERY Well when i coat ends of hair before wahing. But i will deff try that, what effect will adding the cetearyl have on final formula? I did reduce the vit E to when i made the last batch. Thank you and the cyclomethicone is better than dimethicone for hair? If so why? I will order some if worth it.
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@ngarayeva001 what does aloe have to do with polymer emilsifiers?
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Polymer emulsifiers and rheology modifiers give that expensive luxurious feel to products. The absolute majority of high-end products (I am taking about chanel/dior/la mer/la prairie - the stuff that is sold in the Bloomingdales and Saks) as well as many good products sold in drugstores have at least one of them. Aloe is high in electrolytes that the most of polymer emulsifiers do not tolerate well.
I love polymer emulsifiers and only have one face product made with traditional emulsifiers only (I formulated it for my friend and called ‘Hipster Moisturizer’ as a joke). You can find them on lotioncrafter or makingcosmetics. But be careful, once you try them you won’t be able to go back ? -
@Jdawgswife76, I also had that perception that oils must be good for hair. But then I figured out that that it’s cationic emulsifiers and cationic conditioners (cetrimonium chloride) that give detangling and slip. You can make hair mask with oils but that type of product should be left on your hair for 30+ minutes, or it won’t work. Take your favorite commercial product and analyze the LOI. Regarding cyclomethicone, I like mixing it with dimethicone. It’s not a must but a nice addition. Your product will work well even without cyclomethicone.
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ok Sorry so late but thanks for all the help EVERYONE! You have been VERY helpful and at this point of my formulating this all makes so much sense as i have done a TON of experimenting and research since this post…Hope others can learn from this post.
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The main purpose is help one another so we can save time and $.
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Hi,
I am looking for some advice on this formula. It is just for personal use. I have curly hair that is lightened so a little on the dry side. I want something that will hydrate it well but not weigh the curl down.I have been reasonably happy with this but would like some advice on:
- whether there are any ingredients that are not doing anything of value
- whether some of the ingredients in the cool down phase should be in the heated phase
- whether the formula would benefit from 2% cetac
Any other advice would be welcome.
HEATED PHASE:
BTMS 50 5%
Cetyl alcohol 3%
Distilled water 52.5%
Rose hydrosol 20%
Aloe vera 10%
Hydrolised wheat protein 2%
COOL DOWN PHASE:
Cyclomethicone 2%
Dimethicone 2%
Panthenol 2%
Chamomile extract 0.5%
Liquid germal plus 0.5%
Fragrance 0.5%
Thanks.
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@Mel55, I can see a couple of things that can be improved, but you should start a new topic to get help. It’s not in accordance with the rules of the forum to start discussing a new formula in someone’s thread.
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Btms 50 suggested 3.5%
remove cyclomethicone
Cetyl alcohol 2%
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