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antibacterial wipes
I am not planning to try to compete with low cost commercial produts, but had this thought: is there any reason why a low % of cetrimonium chloride should not be as efficient as the benzalkonium chloride I see on ingredient lists?
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57 Replies
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I had the same thought! Not for making a commercial product but for a surface cleaner/degreaser (e.g. formula 409) for my own household.
The molecules are quite different however.Cetrimonium:
Benzalkonium:
I get the sense that the benzene ring may play a role or increase the membrane destabilizing/denaturing effect so less of it is needed. Therefore a higher concentration of cetrimonium chloride would be sufficient, but then it increases the risk of irritation or other adverse effects. If you have the means to test efficacy and compare (even if on a rudimentary way) I would love to hear what you find.Maybe someone with a strong pharmacology background has an explanation why many biologically active ingredients have a benzene ring or are cyclic, and if this could play a role in why benzalkonium is more potent than cetrimonium. -
Yes, I’ve also been wondering about making an antibacterial soap using it, (and amphoteric surfactants).
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letsalcido said:…Maybe someone with a strong pharmacology background has an explanation why many biologically active ingredients have a benzene ring or are cyclic, and if this could play a role in why benzalkonium is more potent than cetrimonium.Pharmacology doesn’t really apply here, we’re hopefully not going to treat microbes so they feel better and live longer :blush: .We’re also not interested in ‘biological activity’ (and there are several reasons including chemical universe and patents, not just biology) and hence, such aspects do not apply to disinfectant activities (they may apply to antibiotic activities but that’s also not what we’re looking at here). Not to speak of microbes being VERY different from human bodies. A lot with disinfectants are empirical findings and speculations on the how & why resulting in rules of thumb.The benzene ring does indeed increase affinity for cell membranes and DNA/RNA and also disturbs more due to a larger head group. The special influence/interaction of aromatic rings with surfactant layers (simply put, cell membranes are exactly that) or more precisely the interphase between water and oil is a known phenomenon but we don’t know why or how. -
@Pharma thanks for the input. I mentioned pharmacology for the lack of knowledge of a better word. I figured pharmacology is concerned since this is labeled as an active drug ingredient in antiseptic solutions for treating wounds.
It does make sense that it may not be concerned about this compound as it’s mechanism of action is not similar to, let’s say, an enzyme inhibitor (like triclosan) that targets a specific pathway nor is it consumed.
This is interesting though, I would assume (perhaps erroneously) that like any other denaturants (alcohol, heat…), it’s not as easy to develop resistance to them. So, this and similar compounds are a better alternative for disinfecting solutions than other compounds with affinities to a specific binding site.
@Belassi I was doing some research and found this https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC88911/, it seems like the bromide salt is preferred over chloride as biocide. It also mentions some of these QAC don’t destabilize the membrane enough on their own to cause cell lysis, so the solution needs to be hypotonic. Of course, with addition of other detergents in your formulation it may be enough.
I can’t seem to find any research on cetrimonium chloride’s biocidal activity or concentrations used for that effect. -
letsalcido said:…
This is interesting though, I would assume (perhaps erroneously) that like any other denaturants (alcohol, heat…), it’s not as easy to develop resistance to them. So, this and similar compounds are a better alternative for disinfecting solutions than other compounds with affinities to a specific binding site…QACs are less likely to lead to resistance but microbes are a crafty little folk and find their way around nearly everything thrown at them, even QACs. However, such mechanisms are more difficult and often involve more steps (e.g. changing cell wall composition) and a higher energy demand (e.g. efflux pumps, ‘detox’ metabolism) than simply modifying a binding site with a more or less free of charge SNP.
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@Pharma agreed, my train of thought exactly.
Thanks for the input!
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I think to amuse myself I will see if I can design an antibacterial liquid soap. Let’s see… sodium cocoamphoacetate, that’s got nice foam. CAPB of course. I’ll start with just those two. For fragrance, 0.1% lavender EO will add some antibacterial function too (the MIC for it is 0.1%). Hmm… glycerin, 1% PEG7GC, citric acid to lower the pH, do I really need a preservative given that I’m going to add CETAC? Maybe against mould. So 0.3% sodium benzoate then.
How much CETAC? There’s the question. HELP! -
1% to 2% CETAC should do the trick. But, CETAC is not nearly as effective an antimicrobial as Benzalkonium Chloride ( use level is 0.10% to .12% ) and the CETAC does make the product sticky, but perhaps not so much in an antibacterial liquid soap.
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Thank you - I’ll try this and report back. Problems at the moment, we are moving imminently and 95% of lab materials are already packed. I am seriously worried about all the glassware, I hope I packed it well enough.
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@Belassi good luck with your move!
@MarkBroussard thanks for the tip! Do you happen to know of any documentation/papers on the effectiveness at different concentrations?
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That I do not. Obviously, there have been lots of projects for hand sanitizers the past few months. I made BenzAlk sanitizer prototypes with and without CETAC is how I know the skin sensorial gets unacceptable above 1% or so. Much easier and more effective to just use BenzAlk, imho.
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I just made a first sample of an antimicrobial hand soap/Shampoo. It was done in haste, specifically to test the carbopol Aqua SF1 I just received.
SLES - 28% (29% active)
CAPB - 15% (30% active)
Carbopol SF1 - 4.0 % (1.2% active)
Triet. - 1.2%EDTA - 0.15%
Polyquat 7 - 1.00%
Purple Mica - 0.15 %
BenzAlk - 0.23% (too high I know)
Fragrance - 0.1%
Germall Plus - 0.5%Viscocity is excellent. Better than expected with the minimum amount of suggested Carbopol. No Salt or Back Acid titration was used so far.
I wonder if the BenzAlk and Polyquat are compatible with a SLES-CAPB-Salt system without the carbopol?
At what percentage would the BenzAlk be self preserving?
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@Cafe33 u think you need not to use Benzalkonium chloride here as you are already using grrmall Plus. Above this , benzalkonium won’t go right with SLES as both are opposite in polarities..
My thoughts..Welcome for any corrections -
Thank you Chirag. I will eliminate any additional preservative. Thats what I thought but was unsure.
From the literature on Carbopol SF-1
Cationic Surfactants
As a general rule, cationic surfactants may have
limited compatibility with Carbopol Aqua SF-1
polymer. Low levels of cetrimonium chloride
have been shown to be compatible with the
polymer in a shampoo formulation.
https://www.ict.unesp.br/Home/sobreoict/departamentosdeensino/odontologiarestauradora/lipq-laboratoriointegradodepesquisa/carbopol-aqua-sfi-ilovepdf-compressed.pdfSo would this apply to benzalkonium? I would imagine a low level of Cetrimonium Chloride would be 0.3%. So perhaps 0.10-0.12% Benzalkonium Chloride would be compatible? Any thoughts?
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@Cafe33 it’s not just the carbopol that’s the issue. The positive charge on benzalkonium chloride and cetrimonium chloride will interact with the negative charge on SLES and will probably render the cationics useless.
Cationic surfactants rely on electrostatic forces to work, it increases their affinity for cell membranes (and hair/surfaces), when you neutralize that force you lose the benefits. That’s why you should use amphoterics or non-ionics with cationics.
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Yes, that’s why I am proposing to use only amphoterics or non-ionic surfactants. Possibly D-limonene in a small percentage would also add antibacterial activity, it’s a good solvent, after all. Must check.
*EDIT* “d-Limonene showed a MIC equal to 256 μg/mL against standard S. aureus and 512 μg/mL against resistant P. aeruginosa.”
- that’s pretty decent! Like, 0.0005% is the minimum inhibitory concentration! Why not use say, 0.01% then? That’s 20 times the MIC. -
@Belassi I didn’t know that about d-limonene, but this is great to know. I wanted to somehow incorporate orange essential oil into my antibacterial surface cleaner. The EO I have said it was 90% limonene, so who knew I would kill two birds with one stone.
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Okay yes, I was so enthusiastic about trying this form of Carbopol that I misinterpreted the term compatibility. The Lubrizol document is talking about compatibility in the sense of stability not mode of action.
An excerpt from Antisepsis, disinfection, and sterilization / Gerald E. McDonnell:
“The antimicrobial
efficacy of QACs can be negatively affected in
the presence of hard water (if in a diluted
product), fatty materials, and anionic surfactants (including soaps); this varies depending on
the QAC type and formulation.”So maybe Belassi’s suggestion of D-Limonene would help the efficacy of soap in a multitude of ways.
I have some Decyl Glucoside, I wonder what would be an appropriate amount to use alongside CAPB.
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@Cafe33 a lot of commercial brands use D-limonene in antibacterial wipes, so I’m sure it at least doesn’t interfere with QACs at the percentages they use.
Decyl glucoside should work great, and would help solubilize your EOs too. I don’t have enough experience to say what ratio of CAPB to use with Decyl Glucoside, but you can always just experiment and see.
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BAC is quite a good solubillizer on its own from my (limited) experience.
I have straight Decyl Glucoside as well as Plantapon TF (Decyl Glucoside, Polyglyceryl-10 Caprylate/Caprate, Coco-Glucoside and Glyceryl Oleate). The foaming with this blend is not all that great.
The Plantapon has an acidic pH since it contains some citric pH, most likely not compatible with our active?
What should be the target pH for a final product containing Benzalkonium?
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apropos of nothing, a few years ago Dettol sold a BAC-containing handwash based on cationic surfactants; I believe they used cetrimonium chloride as a primary surfactant and cocamide DEA as a thickener/foam booster, and the lack of decent alternatives made it difficult to replicate their product without treading on the toes of their patentinterestingly, the BAC in that product was above the maximum permitted limit for use in cosmetics as a preservative, so it’s very likely they were selling it as a human-use biocide -
That’s interesting, Bill.
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Increasingly, here. it is becoming evident that the bottles of sanitiser contain little or no alcohol. How annoying.
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Yes Belassi, there is even a video of company trying to sell their gel by showing that it is not flammable. They claim there is a fire retardant of some kind.
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Cafe33 said:…They claim there is a fire retardant of some kind.
Fire retardant? Hmm… water comes to mind 🙂 …
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