[thebrain]

@Belassi LOL yes, I don’t know where I came up with that one.

@Bill_Toge Thanks, good idea. I’ve mapped out most of the ingredients that I need, it just a matter of sourcing them. Many are easy to get because they are also used in cosmetics and other products-it’s the specialized stuff (e.g. arginine bicarbonate) that’s hard to source.

[thebrain]

While I was working on an “natural” APG shampoo formulation, I experimented with a whole bunch of gum and cellulose thickeners. I wasn’t very impressed with most of them, but sclerotium gum wasn’t bad. The downside is price-it’s not cheap. In the end, I abandoned “natural” in favor of super mild sulfate free synthetics that could be thickened with plain old salt.

[thebrain]

@Belassi Maybe you already know this, but a good rule of thumb is to take your EBITDA and apply a multiple for this based on your industry. This will give you the enterprise value. Check this out:
http://pages.stern.nyu.edu/~adamodar/New_Home_Page/datafile/vebitda.html
I used to work for a PE firm and IME this was pretty accurate. If I were you, and the business has some substantial worth, you probably want to engage with a company familiar with process to help you assess your enterprise value and help you with negotiations. I’d also suggest not selling a controlling stake unless the PE firm is offering more than just money.

[thebrain]

@chemicalmatt I think anyone making natural soaps is not going to want to add synthetic surfactants to their formula. IMO, you either do one or the other.

I have made natural liquid soap using a similar formula with glycerin (aka glycerin liquid soap method). What you do is substitute the glycerin for the water that is combined with the KOH. The reason for doing this, is that glycerin speeds up the otherwise very slow saponification process, as well as the actual end-product production process (you can actually stir the concentrated paste, which is impossible if you just use water). There may be some other benefits that I’m forgetting. I think it also results in thicker product. However, as you pointed out, there are downsides to this method. I too have noticed that-following this glycerin method-that the end product is pretty harsh (due to too much glycerin humectancy? I don’t know), doesn’t foam all that well, and often leaves a residue on pump bottles that will clog them after awhile. I haven’t perfected my liquid soap recipe, which is why I don’t sell it yet.

[thebrain]

@Bill_Toge Thanks for your feedback. I was a little worried when they called and asked me if I had ethoxylated surfactants in my formula. It’s a little strange because there is conflicting product literature. The TDS says it’s compatible with a variety of surfactants, yet a sell sheet comparing all their preservatives indicates it’s not suitable for rinse-off applications. Yet I know it’s commonly used in shampoos based on competitor’s LOIs. They also asked how much surfactants I use, and I told the tech that I’ve got about 15% ASM. He said give it a shot… not the ringing endorsement I would expect!

After reading the TDS, I’m going to try 1%. Does that sound like a good use level?

[thebrain]

@MarkBroussard OK, I give it a shot with my Silverson. If that doesn’t do it, I don’t know what will. I’m waiting for a sample of Euxyl PE 9010, so I may as well try to make the GSB work. If it doesn’t, hopefully I’ll have better luck with the Euxyl. Thanks again.

[thebrain]

@David08848 I’m not sure where SoapQueen comes up with 130F. AFAIK, sodium lactate is not a heat sensitive ingredient, and is often included in the heated phase when making cosmetics. I’ve used it in HP and CP soaps and I haven’t had any problems with it at low or high temperatures. Honestly, I wouldn’t worry about it. Also, I’d skip the hyaluronic acid; it’s very expensive and best used in a leave-on moisturizer. I can’t imagine it would have a noticeable benefit in soap.

[thebrain]

@David08848 I make soap with sodium lactate as well. I don’t ever recall there being a concern with heat stability. What’s the problem with using it? Is it just the heat sensitivity that you’re concerned with? My notes indicate that it should be dissolved in water before you add lye. Sodium citrate is a chelant in soap, used to prevent soap scum. I’ve never heard of it used for anything else in soap. If you want to use it, it too should be dissolved in water before adding lye. If you want additional humectancy, you can increase your superfat/lye discount or add additional glycerin (your soap will already have some from the saponification process).

[thebrain]

@MarkBroussard The challenge for me is that I’m supposed to mix cationic guar in room temperature water by itself. So to do what you suggest, my procedure would have to look something like:

1. While mixing (high shear), add GSB to water
2. Heat solution to 70C
3. Remove from heat and allow to cool to RT
Under agitation (magnetic stirrer), slowly add cationic guar to water
4. Adjust pH to 3.5-5 with citric acid
5. Continue mixing for ~15 minutes
6. Heat solution to 50C
7. Add anionic surfactants, mix
8. Add other surfactants, mix
9. Add other non heat sensitive ingredients, mix
10. Allow to cool to <50C
11. Add cool-down phase ingredients (fragrance), mix
12. Adjust pH with citric acid to ~5.4
13. Add salt for thickening

As you can see, it’s pretty complex, and I’d waste a lot of time heating, cooling, and heating again. I might try skipping step 3 and see what happens. That would save time and make this a lot easier. Do I need to hold at 70C? Is homogenization/high shear necessary or is mixing (w/magnetic stirrer) adequate?

Thanks for your help.

[thebrain]

Surfactants are a sulfate-free blend at 15% ASM. The only notable ingredient there is Colonial Chemical SugaQuat TM-8610, which I believe is cationic, but supposedly is OK with anionics, non-ionics, and cationics. 

Other ingredients:
Panthenol 0.5%
Glycerin 1%
Essential Oils 0.4%
Aloe vera juice (water replacement)
Trisodium Ethylenediamine Disuccinate 0.3%
Cationic guar 0.1%

[thebrain]

@Belassi Yes I built an Excel file that allows me to calculate my costs based on raw material inputs. I’d love to use just sodium benzoate (very inexpensive), but my target pH is 5-5.5, as my surfactants are most effective in that range. I’m not sure if sodium benzoate alone would be effective. Gluconolactone and sodium benzoate aren’t so expensive if I mix the ingredients myself, hence the question.

[thebrain]

@Kimluow I’m currently waiting for a sample of GSB for testing, but I’ve heard that it helps to heat GSB to 70C in the water phase. I don’t know if this is simply to prevent emulsion issues or if it helps with the pH drift (or both). I think sodium citrate would be a good buffer, but I don’t know how much you would need.

[thebrain]

@arizona1az420 I recently purchased a Scilogex MS-H280-Pro. It’s sold on that website (you’ll need to buy the stand and support clamp as well). I’ve been using it for small 100g shampoo samples, and it handles the viscosity just fine. I agree with the others that an overhead stirrer would be better, but a magnetic stirrer might be an economical option for you if you don’t need large quantities.

[thebrain]

@Belassi: You may also want to consider Linatural MBS-2 from Lincoln Fine Ingredients: Caprylic acid, 1,3 Propanediol, Lauric acid and Potassium Sorbate. It’s NPA certified and naturally derived. It has a mild odor-nothing unpleasant, and it’s easily covered up with essential oils or fragrance. I’ve only used it in shampoo, where it causes some thickening and a very slight amber color. I haven’t done PET yet, so I can’t comment on its efficacy, but the manufacturer includes their own results in the TDS.

[thebrain]

@Bill_Toge thanks for the recommendation!

[thebrain]

I’m going to need to buy a Brookfield viscometer soon. I need to be able to measure viscosity initially for shampoo and conditioner, but eventually lotion and body butters too. I don’t need anything fancy, and I’m trying to be cost conscious. What model would you recommend?

[thebrain]

Those Chinese machines are so cheap that even if it doesn’t work for you, it’s not a huge loss. For that same reason, I bought a cheap Chinese magnetic stirrer on eBay for $80. A trusted name brand is $400+, but the difference in price made it worth trying. The product does work as advertised, but it’s nearly impossible to use for more than an hour because it smells like it was made in a glue factory and I can’t remove the smell no matter how many times I wash it. The vendor is in China and doesn’t care. I can’t send it back because the shipping would be more than the stirrer itself.

Anyway, I just wanted to share my experience with the cheap Chinese equipment on eBay. If you need a recommendation for a good overhead stirrer, I’d recommend Caframo-that’s what I bought, along with the Silverson.

[thebrain]

@Nanda: I’m glad it worked out for you You’re welcome.

[thebrain]

@AnnalisaB: Yes, it can function as a mixer because it has very precise speed control; however, it works differently from an overhead mixer. There are going to be some applications where a mixer is going to work better than a homogenizer, and vice versa. It sounds like you want to make lotions with it. For that application, I think the Silverson is perfect.

[thebrain]

@AnnalisaB: Honestly, I don’t know. It would probably work. I ended up buying the pricey Silverson because it has a good reputation here. I can usually get away with mixing my test samples with a $10 mini hand mixer, so I see no reason why you can’t save yourself some money and get a cheaper mixer & homogenizer.

[thebrain]

@Bobzchemist As someone without a cosmetic science background who’s trying to get in to the industry, thank you for your advice here. Myself and others have benefited greatly and we appreciate it. While you may be correct that there are some home-made formulators that get in over their heads, I also want to let you know that not everyone is like that. I started over a year ago now and I intend to make a business out of it, but I’ve been taking my time learning everything I can about the industry and formulation process. I take safety very seriously. I won’t put my customers at risk of being harmed, nor will I put myself and business at risk of being sued (or worse). Please don’t be discouraged; I hope you will continue to offer advice here.

[thebrain]

@Microformulation: Mark, I agree with everything you said except your last line. You can learn formulating over the internet just as well as you can myriad other subjects. Perry wouldn’t be offering a course if it wasn’t possible, and there are lots of free resources available. Speaking personally, I don’t have a degree in chemistry or cosmetic science, but I have learned tremendously from the internet (this website as well as others). I encourage others to do so as well if they have an interest. Whether or not you decide to make it a successful commercial venture is a different story, but that’s possible as well if you do your homework.

[thebrain]

@Nanda: If I use the right ratio, it remains stable and completely clear even if I store it in my refrigerator. 

[thebrain]

@Nanda: One of my shampoo formulas contains SCI, so I have some experience with it. I also live in an area with cold winter climate, and you’re on the right track believing this to be an issue with temperature. SCI is nearly insoluble in water, but agitation and heat will help. If you can get Elfan AT 84G, it’s more soluble in water at low(er) temperatures, but you need to keep it below 60C during processing. I ran a whole bunch of tests to determine the solubility of SCI in various surfactants. As a rough estimate, I think the solubility of SCI in betaine is 1:3. Thus, if you want to use 10% SCI, you will need 30% betaine to do it. Any less than this and it will eventually separate. If you’re unsure whether your formulation is stable, try doing some freeze/thaw tests in your freezer. HTH!

[thebrain]

@Bill_Toge: Thank you for your feedback. I feel a little better now knowing that my safety measures are adequate.