[natcstudios]

Thanks so much for your detailed reply!

You’re right - the ketrol just didn’t work in this formulation. I had tried genuvisco as well without success unfortunately!

I had success with removing gums completely, increasing the surfactants and adding Lamesoft PO. Viscosity building happens at pH adjusting with citric acid and I’m really happy with the result. It’s a beautiful, clear gel, with a next texture that isn’t drying to the skin!

Thanks again!

[natcstudios]

Hi Cordula,

Thank you so much for your advice here. I will try all your recommendations.

1. I would ideally like to keep the same xanthan gum (Ketrol SG-SFT) because we purchase it in high quantities for a shampoo we have but I will test some others to rule that out. I tried reducing glycerin to 1% as suggested by other members, however I used glycerin to predissolve the xanthan gum and now there isn’t enough to do that, and I found the xantham gum wouldn’t fully incorporate and very high shearing left a lot of bubbles which are still here even overnight. Any suggestions?

2. Is there a max amount of xanthan gum you would recommend? I need to thicken it more but the more xanthan gum there is, the more cloudy it gets.

3. Great suggestion on changing the order of ingredients - I pretty much have stayed with the same method so I may try and add citric acid earlier on to see what happens. Would you recommend adding xantham near the end if it’s predissolved in something?

Thanks!

[natcstudios]

Hi @Perry44

Thanks for your reply! Make sense what you said about glycerin. I was only using it to help thicken the gel a bit because anything above 1.25% xanthan gum made it too cloudy. I have found the citric acid helps thicken it as well and I have used lactic acid and still dealt with the precipitates, it was just a lot runnier.

I will look into Oleth-20. I think we would prefer not to use it but I haven’t done enough digging on it to make that decision yet.

I may have to find another way to thicken it but in the meantime I will try out your suggestions!

Thanks again!

[natcstudios]

Hi @ozgirl

Thanks for your reply! I really was only using glycerin because I was finding I couldn’t get the face cleanser thick enough and when I used too much xanthan gum it got quite cloudy. I will for sure reduce to 1% and see how that goes. I have done many trials with varying levels of surfactants, glycerin, and gums and I still am dealing with the precipitates. But I’ll see how reducing glycerin significantly works. Thanks again!

[natcstudios]

Noted! I can’t seem to find benzyl alcohol from any of my current suppliers so I might continue trials with what I have on hand until I can source some.

Do you think using a chelator like sodium phytate could help with the cloudiness? It seems to occur anytime I add citric acid to balance pH or salt with lactic acid as a pH balancer.

Appreciate your help so much!

[natcstudios]

Hi @PhilGeis ,

Yes, we will perform challenge testing once the formulation is completed. Could I use Tristat Eco (Benzyl Alcohol, Glyceryl Caprylate, Glyceryl Undecylenate) or Geogard (Benzyl Alcohol, Salicylic Acid, Glycerin, and Sorbic Acid) in addition to Sodium Benzoate? We already use both of those so I have them on hand.

Thanks so much for your help!

[natcstudios]

Hi @PhilGeis

Yes, cold process! pH is between 4.5-5. What about using Gluconolactone at 1% (Gluconolactone, sodium benzoate, calcium gluconate) w/ Sodium phytate as a chelator?

[natcstudios]

The packaging is a sealed glass bottle with a plastic pump. Would the addition of sodium phytate help boost the preservative action of benzoate?

[natcstudios]

Hi @PhilGeis

Thanks for your input! I don’t plan on using Leuconostoc, it’s just what I had around and I was really just testing for consistency and aspect. I have been using Tristat Eco (Benzyl Alcohol, Glyceryl Caprylate and Glyceryl Undecylenate). Is this also poor preservation?

We are fine with using sodium benzoate but not phenoxyethanol. Would sodium benzoate alone provide enough protection?

[natcstudios]

Hi @ketchito

Update here! I removed lamesoft and hempseed oil and it definitely made it less cloudy and no precipitates have shown up…yet. I made two samples, one without citric acid (pH: 7.12) and one with citric acid (pH 5.13) and put them in the fridge overnight. No precipitates were observed the next morning, however the citric acid made the sample more cloudy. If it is an issue with charges, do you know how to tackle that? Can I balance pH with something else that may make it less cloudy (ie. lactic acid?)

I also made another prototype with xanthan gum only (not siligel), and put some aside with no citric acid and that sample is also much less cloudy but it’s not thick enough. Would thickening with sodium chloride work?

Thank you so much for your help on this!

[natcstudios]

Thanks @ketchito

Yes - my prototypes were left at our lab over the weekend and when I came back I did see some precipitates. Interestingly, the 1st prototype I made without the hemp seed oil has no separation and is the most gel-like in aspect. Still more opaque than I want but definitely better. Perhaps I need to omit it altogether. It had no hemp seed oil and only 2% lamesoft 65. We found it a bit drying so I added the more moisturizing ingredients to try and tackle that but in doing so I may have created these new issues.

I will do some tests with and without citric acid and put them in the fridge like you suggested. Do you think I could up the glycerin to make it less drying and keep lamesoft 65 at a lower concentration and completely remove the hemp seed oil? I will also be adding some water soluble extracts but not until I get the base formulation down.

Thank you again for your help!

[natcstudios]

Hello!

What you’re saying totally makes sense to me. I’ll remove those ingredients and see how the prototype looks. I agree with not needing to use the more expensive gums. The reason why I was using Siligel is we already use it in another product and the third party sellers we previously got it from no longer sell it in smaller quantities, so I have had to purchase 5kg and we will likely not go through it all before it expires so this was my attempt to maximize on our inventory. I have multiple other xanthan gums on hand so I will certainly test those out as well!

Thanks so much!

[natcstudios]

Thanks for your reply!

We are a green beauty brand so PEG’s aren’t an option unfortunately. Makes sense about the Hemp seed oil. We wanted the cleanser to be slightly less drying so that was my attempt to add some moisturizing properties. Also, the supplier suggests using Plantapon SF with Lamesoft PO 65 for gel cleansers so I thought we would be able to achieve a clear-ish gel.

I am happy to use gums as long as we can still achieve a somewhat clear gel cleanser. If you have any other thoughts for a clean/green cleanser I welcome your input!