[em88]

ngarayeva001 said:

Do you mean Polysorbate 20 a solubiliser? I have never seen PEG-20 a humectant on DIY market.

Indeed it should be an emulsifier there. It is most likely Polysorbate 20. 

[em88]

Dtdang said:

@em88
Here are the results:
on facial cream, I tried the idea of @Belassi. Thanks @Belassi. i used only 0.1% peppermint oil. It smells good and gives cooling feel. Its smell is great! it makes you feeling good. 
On the emulsified Scrubs, I used 1% menthyl lactate + mentha haplocalix extract. It cooler that I need for hand and feet. But, the endure of cooling is short. This is my first time to formulate scrubs.

Thank you for the feedback. I did a test myself a few day ago. I made a gel with 3% with camphor. The cooling effect was very noticeable. It persisted for some time and it didn’t turn into a warm effect at all. I did as well tried a product with high concentration of menthol and camphor. The cooling effect was very noticable again and after 10 minutes it turned into a warming effect. 

[em88]

Where is you market situated? 

[em88]

joanaflores said:

em88 said:

I wrote the steps above. We registered a product with 70% m/m ethanol already.
Maybe you are looking for high viscosity gels? For me 6000-10000 cP is enough for a hand sanitizer. 

Hello, can you say how much triethanolamine do you use?

 I am using 0.35% carbopol 940.

When I add 0.17% triethanolamine, in the last half, it forms a milky mixture and it losses all viscosity.

I am concerned that this happens because I only have 20% m/m of water.

I have worked with carbomer 940 very long time ago and I don’t remember the concentration of triethanolamine. At the moment we work only with carbomer 980. For this type of carbomer we use about 0.1% of triethanolamine. You should check the pH of the gel and be in the range of 6-7. Use a low mixing speed when neutralizing.
I’d recommend you to use 0.4-0.5% carbomer. 

[em88]

Tested HEC hhx 250, it doesn’t work,
Tested HPC high molecular mass, it works 
I will try hpmc high molecular mass as soon as I have a little more time. 
The problem with cellulose polymers is their ability to form noticable films, which will affect the sensory feeling. 

[em88]

Camphor, same as menthol, can induce both effects, cold and warm. It mostly will depend on concentration. That’s why I suggested low concentrations. 

[em88]

It would be great if you give us a feedback. 

[em88]

I’d like a software too, free or paid, doesn’t matter. I’m not the best in keeping things organized, probably lazy 

[em88]

Try with 1% menthol, 1% Camphor and 0.2% Eucalyptus oil. You should feel the cooling effect. 

[em88]

Mr_Clean said:

em88 said:

“Oil and wax phase is 42% with required HLB calculated at 11.
I am using ceteareth 25 at 4.5% and peg 7 glycerol cocoate at 9.5% in the complete formula, rest of formula is water at 15% and polymers, clays.”

I’d be surprised if your product would be stable. PEG-7 Glyceryl Cocoate has an HLB value of 11 (source: makingcosmetics) and found and another source with an HLB value of 10.  Ceteareth 25 has an HLB value of 16.27 (source: makingcosmetics).  You are using two O?W emulsifiers, but your emulsion is W/O.  Unless you are trying a GelTrap strategy, I don’t see this formulation can be stable. 
Another issue, 15% emulsifiers seems a lot. 

Hi, thanks for feedback, why would my formula be water in oil emulsion, isn’t that decided by what emulsifiers I use with their relevant hlb numbers. Would it not be possible to mix 15% water as oil in water emulsion. I use water to blend polymers.

That is correct, but not in terms of stability. Your system will not be stable with 42% oil and 15% water for an o/w emulsion, again, unless you are using stabilizers! Have a look for HIP (high internal phase) emulsions in the forum or google in general. 

[em88]

“Oil and wax phase is 42% with required HLB calculated at 11.
I am using ceteareth 25 at 4.5% and peg 7 glycerol cocoate at 9.5% in the complete formula, rest of formula is water at 15% and polymers, clays.”

I’d be surprised if your product would be stable. PEG-7 Glyceryl Cocoate has an HLB value of 11 (source: makingcosmetics) and found and another source with an HLB value of 10.  Ceteareth 25 has an HLB value of 16.27 (source: makingcosmetics).  You are using two O?W emulsifiers, but your emulsion is W/O.  Unless you are trying a GelTrap strategy, I don’t see this formulation can be stable. 
Another issue, 15% emulsifiers seems a lot. 

[em88]

Oh god, I’m afraid for those poor babies now. 
@Suleman, how about reading (A LOT) and then formulate baby products?
What’s this strategy of throwing here your project without even reading what are you talking about? 

[em88]

Why not all three of them?

[em88]

Cetearyl alcohol - the most used co-emulsifier, good performance, and feel.
Cetyl alcohol - in some specific combinations gives better results than Cetearyl alcohol (based on my own tests). The quantity I have used in those tests was relatively small (around 5%), so I didn’t notice any unpleasant feelings. 
Glyceryl stearate - as for my knowledge is a standalone emulsifier (same as Glyceryl oleate). Regarding skin feel, in my opinion, it will give the emission a greasy feel and it will increase the viscosity considerably. 
In the end, it really depends on the quantity and the other ingredients used. 

[em88]

Have anyone used Ultrez 20 or 21? What is the difference in sensory feeling with Carbomer 980 or 940? 
I was asked if I wanted to try Ultrez 21 before, but somehow I didn’t pay too much attention to this product seeing Carbomer 980 good enough for our projects. Now I’m really curious to know if there is any major difference. 

[em88]

31ahmedazeem said:

i want to make hand senitizer But i dont know how much quantity % use of carbomer in water . and which is the best for it 940 or 980.

Based on your questions, you do not have enough experience in this area. I’d strongly recommend doing the sanitizer exactly as WHO mentions if you really must do it yourself. 

[em88]

Oh, now I see. I remember that paper.
Well, have you tried any of those formulations? 
I have tried a few of them, as I remember not all the data presented there did match with my results. To be fair, this is normal. It happens many times from different manufacturers. I believe those data are to create an idea about the performance of their products and the difference between neutralizers. Also in that particular table, it is not mentioned what carbomer did they use. 

[em88]

We are a pharmaceutical industry with GMP and the supplier of ethanol is certified as well. We also test the purity of ethanol. The concentration is 96%. 
What does lubrizol say? And by the way, we work only with lubrizol. 

[em88]

I wrote the steps above. We registered a product with 70% m/m ethanol already.
Maybe you are looking for high viscosity gels? For me 6000-10000 cP is enough for a hand sanitizer. 

[em88]

hrajan said:

Thank you for your valuable info. It is very useful 

Have you made any new trials?

Fekher said:

@hrajan actually with TEA you will not able to reach more then 60% IPA, take a look for that. https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/uploads/editor/gn/0fbgsjljgbf9.png

I have managed to formulate 70% IPA with carbomer/TEA. Same for ethanol.

[em88]

Cetar said:

@em88 Ok that is very helpful, so the carbomer can be dispersed in the water before neutralization, and the paddle can be used during the thickening/neutralization stage. If the carbomer is dispersed with the homogenizer at <1200rpm, wouldn’t the lack of vortex cause all the carbomer to float at the top, stay there, and inevitably lead to unmixed pockets of product (“fish eyes”)?

Yes! It depends a lot on the vessel shape, homogenizer position, and homogenizer power. Usually, these issues are taken into consideration if the engineering of the equipment is done correctly. We have 2 industrial lines from different manufacturers. in one we had the issue you mentioned above, so we have to disperse the carbomer in less solvent and than add the rest of it. 
During the dispersion of carbomer, you should use the paddle as well and at a higher speed than usual, just to help the homogenizer. 

[em88]

What is the expected viscosity you are looking for? 

[em88]

An easy way to disperse carbomer is with a homogenizer. Silverson is one of the best manufacturers. 
You can disperse the carbomer even with an overhead stirrer with the right paddle. 

[em88]

That is a weird position for the homogenizer. 
The homogenizer does not create a vortex. The fluid flow is perpendicular to the surface. It is very easy to work with carbomer. The homogenizer (if it has enough power) should be able to disperse carbomer in the fluid mass, while the mixing paddle should mix carbomer with the neutralizer and form the gel. You will not need the homogenizer during this phase.  

@@alchemist01, your process needs to be optimized. You are wasting 12 hours. 

[em88]

hrajan said:

Surely will send it

Great.
There are several ways to prepare the gel, the difference is minimal in industrial equipment. 
Add IPA (try first with 70%) and water and mix. After that add carbomer (try with 0.5%) and disperse it. It depends on the carbomer you have, 940 and 980 should do the job. Once the carbomer is very well dispersed add TEA till the pH is 6.5 (6-7). After that, you can add PG and glycerine.  Colour and perfume may influence the viscosity. 
If the results are acceptable you can optimize the formulation in terms of sensory feeling or adding 5% more IPA.