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I already checked ifra limit on my batch, it’s 60%.

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Yes Phenethyl Alcohol its definitely something that we can use , do you know of sources in EU ? Do you know at what rates ?

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I used sodium phytate as chelator. Packaging is glass bottles with dropper . I am planning to drop the pH to 4.5 and use sodium benzoate

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The problem is that 2 organic acids do not have synergy ..so we are still looking at lowering further the pH and use something else to increase antimicrobial effect .

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I am already using potasium sorbate(but less ) to augment sodium anisate

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The list of cosmos approved materials is short and getting shorter (pheno is out) that we can still use ..sodium benzoate is at the top of the listing .

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I understand your point and we will certainly increase the preservation, will have to think and see what’s the best way.

In any case thx to everyone and especially Phil for sharing his vast knowledge.

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No doubt that Phil is very knowledgeable. But the big corporations have different needs in terms of shelf life and pao compared with smaller companies that don’t sell in supermarkets.

In the cosmetics market, as in real life, there are different segments. You could eat McDonald’s burgers, perfectly safe and fully validated. As for my market we would rather eat organic even thou the shelf life is less.

Meanwhile we will continue adhering to EU laws and comply with all testing procedures as mandated.

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Also you are definitely wrong on GMP, for each raw material you can accept COA (with some rules)

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Hi Phil

Can you point me to any technical data that support you statement?

Otherwise it’s just an opinion, with all due respect.

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I just got back the new tests from lab. The raw material is not contaminated. The issue is from preservation system.

I did not disclose that we also used ferment filtrate in the serum. (that also came back negative for mesophilic bacteria). I never realized that this ferment is bug food ( info found on those forums)… So my preservation is inadequate.

I do understand that you guys advocate for stronger preservatives that will make it stable for a longer time but I do not agree with you entirely. Yes it has to be safe, absolutely, but so it’s a Mcdonald burger and yet I would rather eat a steak tartar, raw, organic if possible and preservative free. (I do not advocate for preservative free in cosmetics under any circumstance!!)

Our market is not accepting any strong preservative (sodium benzoate is grudgingly accepted)

Getting back to levulinic acid/sodium anisate, I think (I know based on all the tests) that at right ph with the right hurdles it’s a very good preservative … but far less so in emulsions. However you need to know how to use it and no the evonik mix is not good..

Anectodal problems with those preservatives do not mean much as we all understand. What ph, what ingredients, what hurdles and in what %…

I think the differences in opinions are cultural. In north America we(I grew up north) preservation means years to stays on shelfs, at least a year after opening. In the old continent, we think now, that if it stays on the shelf for more than 1 year then I don’t want to use it on my skin.

Things change and we have to change with the times.

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Hello Phil

We did 2 separate batches . I changed the polyglutamic acid (second batch) and the only ingredient that was used on both batches is sodium hyaluronate (and propanediol , sodium phytate and preservatives)

So I am wondering if that can be contaminated.

Regarding shelf file endPAO , we do stability testing (again mandatory in EU) and chose shelf life and PAO. Its normal in France to have 6 months PAO and no benzoyl alcohol is not accepted by french customers .

Right now about 10% of the market switched to sodium anisate/sodium levulinate (natural cosmetic market) and everyone has 6 months PAO and 12-18 months shelf life.

As I said previously we passed all tests on about 10 products and a few months prior we passed another 10 using the same preservation system.

From your messages I think , that you are blaming the preservation system and not the raw materials contamination ? Did I understood correctly ?

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Also I want to add that our shelf life is 14 months and 6 months after opening,

And the same serum passed challenge test .

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Not failed in challenge test but failed in microbiology test (thats mandatory in EU) on account of mesophilic bacteria presence (higher than accepted norms). Our hurdle is based on Propanediol 1-3 at 3% , natural chelator (I think its evonik) at 0.15% as chelator and pH under 4.8

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Unfortunately in the french market its not possible to use phenoxiethanol or stronger preservatives. Using sodium anisate/sodium levulinate we passed 10 serums so far…except this one

Please note that we are using the hurdle approach with pH , chelator , water activity reduction .

I think that one of my materials is contaminated and wanted to know if anyone had this issue before.

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I am monitoring , yes it seems to me now that only the minerals are settling . Still I am not sure that I understand is squalane miscible with any vegetable oils for example (they are polar) ?

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Yes viscosity is higher for CAPB at same %

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I have used Lauryl Betaine and it does have a salt curve .

Fast research shows this https://eocgroup.com/sites/default/files/EOC%20Surfactants%20Product%20Leaflet%20Euroquat-CF%20-%20v05-2021.pdf

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Gentle bump..

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ok another question…I am using a derivative of vitamin C in this deodorant . To my nose it makes a big difference but I am unable to find any research showing antioxidants reduces BO. Does anyone know of any research showing a link between the two ?

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at pH 4.6 to 4.8 those enzymes have issues ?

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I am thinking to use about 3% of TEC and 1% of Deoplex. Any advise ?

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Thx to all for the replies.

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Anyone? 

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Known spf boosters : spherical silica, Rice bran wax, lignin, assure+… Is that enough?