[bohnjowers]

@chemicalmatt & @Bill_toge

I now understand what you two we’re telling me, PVP has really nothing to do with the fixative effect. I can’t believe I didn’t realize this earlier! Thanks for bringing this to light for me!

[bohnjowers]

@chemicalmatt

Thanks for your input. I’ve basically decided to take the approach you have recommended. I’ve sourced some different fixative polymers and am starting from the ground up. Water, C-25, Polymers…and then adding what is needed to reach the desired organoleptic characteristics. So far I’ve had much more success than attempting to knock off these other brands. 

Thanks again! 

[bohnjowers]

@bill_toge

Thanks Bill…I’ll keep at it!

[bohnjowers]

@milliachemist

What I usually do is dilute the Fixate and heat it to 75 C and add it with the preservatives and fragrance. However, it still cross links a bit, but not as bad as heating it to 90 C. Maybe I’ll contact Lubrizol and see what they recommend.

Thanks for the help! 

[bohnjowers]

@milliachemist

Thanks…I’m surprised I haven’t seen this before. Looks pretty close to what I’m attempting to accomplish. I’m surprised it says to heat Fixate in phase B. Whenever I mix it into the water phase and heat it to 80-90 C it cross links and stick to my mixing head. It is a pain to clean! 

Any ideas on how to avoid that? 

[bohnjowers]

@bill_toge

I’ve played around with increasing the PEG-8 beeswax up to about 2.5%, and that helps, but it still doesn’t meet expectations. From my experience, it seems the secret is in the relationship between the PVP, PEG and Glycerin. I just can’t seem to find the proper ratio. Especially when looking at ingredient lists from current products on the market:

Product #1:

Water (Aqua),
Ceteareth-25, PEG-7 Glycerl Cocoate, Polysorbate-20, PVP, Propylene Glycol,
PEG-7 Hydrogenated Castor Oil, PEG-8 Beeswax, Fragrance (Parfum), PEG-8
Methicone, DMDM Hydatoin, Methylparaben

Product #2:

water, ceteareth-25, glycerin, PEG-7 glyceryl cocoate, PEG 40 hydrogentated castor oil, fragrance, hydantoin caramel, simethicone, PVP, PEG-8 beeswax, propylene glycol,methylparaben, polysorbate 20

If the ingredients are in order by concentration, there is no way the PVP load can be very high. I did a dry down with Product # 2 and roughly 58% of the formulation are volatiles and I know the C-25 is set around 25%. That doesn’t leave much room for high PVP loads. I’ll look into the resins you recommended, but I’d love to figure out the secret with the PVP in these formulas before I start innovating. Let me know if you have any recommendations.

[bohnjowers]

@tonyh

Still not a very strong hold. I’d say a light hold at best. I even drew down all of the plasticisers and increased the PVP to 8% and still it doesn’t seem to be work. I think it’s time to bring on some help. 

Anybody have experience with hair care products and have a modest lab? I’ll provide raw materials and monetary support if anyone wants to make an extra buck. 

[bohnjowers]

@tonyh

I’ll give it a go and let you know how it works out. 

[bohnjowers]

@tonyh

That looks pretty similar to some of the formulations I have tried. I’ve also tried other fixative polymers (Fixate, VP/VA) and I still can’t seem to get the effect of the current “water soluble” pomades on the market. They literally turn your hair into cement! I’m on my 80th iteration and I’m about ready to throw in the towel or just hire someone to help me figure it out. I’ll take one more run at this and let you know if it’s a success. 

[bohnjowers]

@tonyh

Thanks for the suggestion. I’ll try drawing down the humectant and see how that works. Out of curiosity, given the ingredients listed above, how would you place them in order of concentration?