[AVisotsky]

@ketchito thank, man, I actually do not see them using these in claims. Just surprisingly many “chlorides”. Unless they are part of some other combo-chemical product with the main ingredient listed closer to the top. I doubt they were added separately

[AVisotsky]

Thanks, guys!

At the very tail-end, there are also the following ingredients. First half seems like claims material and chlorides are stabilizers/chelators. Correct?

HYDROLYZED WHEAT PROTEIN ,
ETHYLHEXYLGLYCERIN ,
PHOSPHORIC ACID ,
CENTELLA ASIATICA EXTRACT ,
CHAMOMILLA RECUTITA (MATRICARIA) FLOWER ,
CITRUS AURANTIUM DULCIS (ORANGE) FRUIT E ,
HYDROXYPROPYL CYCLODEXTRIN ,
SODIUM BENZOATE ,
POTASSIUM SORBATE ,
PENTYLENE GLYCOL ,
CALCIUM CHLORIDE ,
CUPRIC CHLORIDE ,FERRIC CHLORIDE ,MAGNESIUM CHLORIDE ,MANGANESE CHLORIDE ,ZINC CHLORIDE

[AVisotsky]

Also, what’s buffering urea in this combo: Aqua (and) Glycerin (and) Trehalose (and) Urea (and) Serine (and) Pentylene Glycol (and) Glyceryl Polyacrylate (and) Algin (and) Caprylyl Glycol (and) Sodium Hyaluronate (and) Pullulan (and) Disodium Phosphate (and) Potassium Phosphate. It’s a BAFS’ formula so I don’t know the %%% (PatcH2O®)

[AVisotsky]

That’s super helpful! @Pharma, is there a general rule of thumb of how much urea vs TEC is good to use? Or is it about a pH that needs to be targeted? 

[AVisotsky]

@EVchem thank you have you used it yourself? 

[AVisotsky]

@EVchem thank! I’ll check it out. Which “outdated formulator software” is that?
 @@ChemicalPyros is Access is a name of software? Do you have a link? Thank you

[AVisotsky]

Thank you, folks, I mean the inventory of samples. I do not make anything for commercial consumption in my lab, just R&D. 
Curious how you organize your library of samples in your lab and how you organize your formulas!

[AVisotsky]

Thank you, Pattsi. I might try that

[AVisotsky]

LOL. Good point. Back to the lab!

[AVisotsky]

@letsalcido  The trial approach works for me Thank you!

[AVisotsky]

@ozgirl thank you, I used behenyl alcohol since per Montanov’s formulating guide they recommend fatty alcohol as a co-emulsifier. I’ll look into alternatives to that if my experiment with viscosity fails

[AVisotsky]

@letsalcido this is very helpful. How do one decides on the optimal viscosity of the water phase? 

[AVisotsky]

@letsalcido It’s a good question. If I remember correctly, it turns white once I start the blender, it just loses translucency once mixed. 
Perhaps, need to try a thickener and increase Montanov a bit? I do like the sensorial properties of Montanov 68 emulsions. It would be great to keep it.

[AVisotsky]

Got ya. I was reading this technical explanation that helps understand the mechanics, exactly what you just said: either even out the viscosity or power through with EM/sheer. Makes sense, thank you for taking the time to explain.

I’d like to stay away from gums, are there are other viscosity modifiers besides Hydroxypropylcellulose that you know? 
Thank you so much for sharing your thoughts and experience.

[AVisotsky]

Thank you so much for your analysis!
I was just putting Hydroxypropylcellulose on my shopping list as I read this
I will check for liquid emulsifiers as well. 

Yes, I use a spatula for the cooling phase, I’ll pay more attention during the next trial batch. 

Thanks again, for taking the time to provide your suggestions. 

[AVisotsky]

I have to add this about separation when heated: it could be easily “emulsified” again when just stirred (in both cases), and once it cools down it looks fine again. HMMMMM…
Technically, coalescence would be irreversible, right? So it’s not it? Maybe just oil separating?

Should I increase the emulsifier? Or maybe increase the oil phase proportion? Up to 25%?

FYI Montanovs’ pH range is 3-12. 

Now, the whole anionic/cationic/zwitterionic thing - that I don’t know how to think about. Technically, Montanov is good with cationic ingredients but I can’t find anything on zwitterionic ingredients that (as I was explained earlier) form here when Arginine interacts with acids.

[AVisotsky]

@Rari you can write to this consultant (I worked with her for my OTC products, she is super reasonable  

Melanie Cummings <melanie@repertoireconsulting.com>

[AVisotsky]

@letsalcido Thank you! Will research further

[AVisotsky]

@ngarayeva001 Hello and thank you. Because I didn’t know to look up what kind of emulsifier Montanov 68 was I realize my mistake now.
Thank you for the tip. Is NaOH added before emulsification or could it be added after? 

[AVisotsky]

Ah, no! It is actually o/w, it’s miscible in water and not in oil, just checked. 

[AVisotsky]

Oh wait, I just realized it is w/o, so it doesn’t really have a pH, right? So I can’t measure it correctly unless I measure the pH of the water phase ahead of time? 

[AVisotsky]

Hi @Belassi I just noticed your comment on bentonite, why is it harsh? Also, did you notice a difference in quality between suppliers in terms of the quality of bentonite? Which one did you prefer? thank you

[AVisotsky]

Right, PhytoMulse is:
Cetearyl Alcohol & Glyceryl Stearate & Almondeth-20

This is the first time I’ll be using this combo. I’ll report once I make some samples.
Lactobacillus Ferment is in all Leucidal products. It’s the question what you fermented ) I’m using this one:

INC: Leuconostoc/Radish Root Ferment Filtrate & Lactobacillus & Cocos Nucifera (Coconut) Fruit Extract Any thoughts on max volume/ % of the add-ons during the cooling phase?

[AVisotsky]

@EVchem thank you, I’m still at the point of the early back-of-the-napkin design for my cream but I use a preservative (Leucidal, I know some here dislike but works for me) and it alone takes up 4-5% during cooling. So that got me thinking, how much more I can add during that phase and if there are alternatives that I can order on Lotioncrafter to experiment with.
The powder is prebiotics so it is heat-sensitive (to the point) till it turns into caramel The emulsifier that I have on hands requires 80C, this is too much for the powder.
In terms of value, I was thinking something fast drying with glycolic acid (5-10%, in water phase) and prebiotics (1-2% but need to dissolve in water first, cooling phase).
So given high % concentration of preservative + prebiotics dissolved in water to be added in the cooling phase would account for like 15-25% of the total weight. 

Since I have no access to the lab, I’d have to experiment in the kitchen and don’t have much time when it’s free ) otherwise I’d try and see if things work with much less planning:))
In terms of the final composition, either lotion or cream. For oil phase my current thoughts were: 

Caprylic Capric Trygleciride 10-25%

PhytoMulse 4-6% (mostly because I have a free sample on hands)

Behenyl Alcohol 2-3% Thank you for reading and taking the time to respond.

[AVisotsky]

got ya ) we also use laser-printed stickers that are waterproof but annoying to attach. So I was wondering if there is a better way