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Sodium benzoate and SLS in toothpaste
Since cocamidopropyl betaine is known to counteract the “harshness” of SLS, I was thinking of using the following in a toothpaste.
I would want to use the same combination whether making a calcium carbonate or silica-based toothpaste…
0.5% SLS
0.5% cocamidopropyl betaine
0.3% sodium benzoate
I this a good idea, or a horrible idea?
I await response(s) with baited breath ????.
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19 Replies
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CB is gentle but not for eczema, I love castille soap for toothpaste. I’m not sure if it works in anything other than homemade toothpaste but its super gentle.
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CAPB is one of the mildest avaliable surfactants. It can produce some skin issues to people with specific skin allergy to the ingredient, which is rare. To be safe, always formulate it along an anionic surfactant (wich will hinder both polar heads by forming a mixed micellar system) and at a low pH (which will neutralize amidoamines and other basic impurities, which can be present in traces). Also, regarding the safety of soaps, better take a look at the available evidence like this CIR review: cir-reports.cir-safety.org/view-attachment/?id=3a3ac6dd-8c74-ec11-8943-0022482f06a6. Our own experience is considered as anecdotal evidence, which is the lowest level of evidence possible. We always need to search for systematic reviews on the topic (like this one from CIR or the Opinions from the SCCs of the EU).
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I find the amount you need to use depends very much on the taste of the finished product and also how much it foams and adjust the amount accordingly.
If, you are using essential oils to flavour, you may require more SLS/CAPB - the oils seem to knock the foaming back a bit, you may find you are using too much if you use a commercial flavour.
Also, if you are going for fruity flavours (or non-mint flavours) you may find the flavours of the SLS/CAPB come through a bit more and you may need to adjust.
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Question…… First, I have NO plans to EVER make toothpaste. 😁 I do however want to be a prudent and educated consumer. I have come to the conclusion that the mouth has an important microbiome, which we should not be killing on a wholesale level.
With this in mind…. are there certain ingredients (which I would want to avoid) if I am not looking for the wholesale slaughter of the oral microbiome? With this in mind… I have stopped using mouthwash a number of years ago. So… I guess you can address the question (should you accept to answer) either as ingredients to avoid….or brands/versions of brands that you would recommend. This on both toothpaste and mouth rinse.
Currently….due to being ‘old school’ use a fluoridated toothpaste once a day, as well as a hydroxyapatite toothpaste, once a day.
Aloha.
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In short - I don’t know.
Whilst the microbiome is important, we have to remember not all organisms are friendly to teeth and can lead to dental decay. Even brushing alone with water and perhaps some sodium bicarbonate or salt will also disrupt the microbiome to some degree. Adding surfactants, flavours, humectants and the like could also further impact the microbiome.
But whatever damage toothpaste does to the microbiome; it is not as severe as various mouthwashes. I don’t use mouthwash either. Personally, I find mouth odour increases horrifically when using it. I have seen some mouthwashes using chlorhexidine, but I understand listerine uses a blend of methyl salicylate, thymol and eucalyptol have antibacterial action, which also disrupt or destroy the microbiome.
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So in lies the quandary…. how does one reduce the bad guys…without annihilating the good guys. Some of the great current generation medical concerns, are casting haunting shadows…..towards the messed-up microbiome, with mouth microbiome being one that is under suspicion…. a case of what was thought to be excellent oral hygene….might be becoming the actual pariah.
I hear you….on the overuse of disinfectants…. enhancing negative oral scents. I have worked extensively in underarm odors…. and many products (especially the mommy blogger material) will actually accentuate odors….once they get past the efficacy range. This is a direct result of imbalance. If you raise pH of the armpit with your potion….(assuming you already know the stinky parts of skin….feet, groin and pits…. all have a significantly higher skin pH than the balance of the body)…. then as the skin returns to the desired pH levels….the microbiome that is best adapted to high pH, is the first to recover. Of course, we know the odor causing bacteria….are especially well adapted and prefer a slightly higher pH. The people that use those beginner formulas….are a SPECIAL kind of RIPE…. when they take a day off. 😂
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This reply was modified 2 weeks, 1 day ago by Graillotion.
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We do know the gut microbiome is affected by foods, medications, drugs. Some affect the microbiome for the better, others can seriously disrupt the microbiome - as in the case of antibiotics. But what we do know, some commensal (Lactobacillus, bifidobacteria) gut organisms release various bactericidal compounds that can kill or slow the growth of pathogenic organisms. Some of these chemicals are short chain fatty acids such as butyric acid.
These short chain fatty acids are metabolised from dietary fibre, polyphenols, flavonoids from dietary sources.
However, the transit time in the gut is longer than the contact time in the mouth. I do know of a company using chlorhexidine hountwashes to strip out all organisms in the mouth, and supply Streptococcus salivarius - but that is just one of the organisms found in the mouth. There are hundreds of them, not just in the mouth, but in the body as a whole. Many cannot be cultivated commercially.
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This reply was modified 2 weeks, 1 day ago by
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There’s this interesting review:https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10690560/
pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov
Mouthwash Effects on the Oral Microbiome: Are They Good, Bad, or Balanced? - PMC
This narrative review describes the oral microbiome, and its role in oral health and disease, before considering the impact of commonly used over-the-counter (OTC) mouthwashes on oral bacteria, viruses, bacteriophages, and fungi that make up these ...
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Don’t get carried away from “might”. As noted in the article, much in vitro data and little re. microbiome in situ.
“dental practitioners should be seeking to advise antiseptics that maintain a “balanced,” healthy, and diverse microbiome when they are used to manage any microbial-induced oral disease”. This is pretty useless BS.
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This reply was modified 2 weeks, 1 day ago by PhilGeis.
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@PhilGeis You’re right, and I was very surprised to find the huge lack of human testing, and the overwhelming amount of in vitro data.
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Sampling in vivo is real hard - saliva itself is as poor as a skin swab. Bugs are in tissue, in and around teeth, gingiva and subgingiva, regurgitated, from sinus and nasal.
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This reply was modified 2 weeks, 1 day ago by
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@PhilGeis Just wonder what your opinion is on this new boosted Na benzoate that “works” at pH as high as 8.5. This new preservative has Na benzoate, EDTA and polyamine. I don’t see how this mix can do the magic, but maybe it’s just my brain limitations…or maybe it’s one of the many fairy tales from suppliers.
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I’m not the sharpest knife in the drawer….but there is a brand that rhymes with GeoTard, that says their organic acid based preservative will work at something like 8 or 8.5. 😅 Hey, if your gonna pull BS…might as well go big!
It appears as all my books….are out of date. My how chemistry has changed since I slept! 😉
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SLS and prob some other surfactants change the apparent pKa of Benzoic acid enough to preserve efficacy approaching 8. Used this in P&G shampoos.
Maybe these guys have found the same effect with polyamine. Wonder that it’s enough to function that well in finished product (even even at the recommended the 2-3% level).
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/0001868689800028
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They are using those fun words “Broad Spectrum” we all love so much. Correct me if I am wrong Dr Geis… aren’t the benzoates/benzoic weak on Gram -, even under ideal conditions?
Albeit they are focusing our attention that their product is used by ‘WalMart’, so I guess that is a pretty high standard to be held…. 😉 (Isn’t that the same bar that P&G and L’Oréal use?)
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Yes - Gram neg’s (esp.pseudomonads) can “eat” benzoate.
Walmart - yup. Walmart’s contract packer’s formula.
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Thank you @PhilGeis and @graillotion for your comments!
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I asked ’em for data - let’s see what they say.
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Amazing!!!! A week and no response.
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