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Soap Effect in Lotion
I could not eliminate Soap Effect in my formulation despite I am using Ester, CCT and Dimethicone. May be there percentages are low.
Here is the formulation, I am working on:
Water q.s.
Glycerin 5%
C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate 5%
C/C Triglycride 4%
Cetyl Alcohol 3.2%
Dimethicone-350 2%
Coconut Oil 2%
Shea Butter 2%
GS & PEG-100 Stearate 1.3%
Fragrance Oil 1%
PQ-7 0.5%
Germall Plus 0.5%
Vitamin E 0.1%
Di-EDTA 0.1%
Before adding cool down phase, the pH is 8+
Adjusting the pH disturbs the texture.Shall appreciate some tips.
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28 Replies
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Is it for hair?
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NO
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You can cut both coconut oil and shea butter by half, and increase your dimethicone at 3%. Also, add some citric acid to adjust the pH (0.1-0.2), but do it right at the start (to the water phase, before anything else).
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In the meantime, I had done this:
Water q.s.
EDTA 0.1%
Glycerin 5%
Sodium Lactate 3%Cetyl Alcohol 3.2%
IPM 1%
C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate 4%
Dimethicone 2%
C/C Triglycride 5%
Shea Butter 2%
GS & PEG 100 Stearate 1.5%Cyclomethicone 1%
Vitamin E 0.1%
Germall Plus 0.5%
Fragrance 1%
IPM 1% (to mix Fragrance oil)
PQ7 0.5% (dissolved in some water)This reduced the Soaping Effect around 40%.
IPM could not help fragrance, and the final blend was thinned.-
This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by Abu-Hafss. Reason: Missed one ingredient
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This reply was modified 1 month, 2 weeks ago by
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Is this product stable?
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I formulated today, so far it is.
BTW, do you have any doubts?
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This product should not have soaping with this amount of silicones. Maybe there is a problem in your production method. What is your method?
Also it may not be stable long term.
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Here is procedure:
The Oil Phase and Water Phase are heated separated until the solids in oil phase melt.
Then pour the Water Phase into Oil Phase. After gentle stirring, high shear blending with stick blender for 30-60 seconds. Then manual stirring until <40°C.
Next, adjust pH and finally add the Cool Down ingredients.What made you guess, the blend would not be stable for long?
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Your formulation supposed to be far from soaping my dobt is that your raw materials are bad quality.
Ingredients may make soaping in your formulation basically Pq7 and emulsifier but with your level of use for silicone must be too far from soaping.
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I second @Abdullah
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At such high pH, there’s the chance that some FFAA from your natural oils might be neutralizing, contributing to the soaping. In your last attempt, since you remover coconut oil, soaping decreased. Try adding citric acid from the start so you have a final pH of 4-5, and also use n9 more than 0.5% of each natural oil/butter.
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I performed centrifuge test on my earlier formulation, and yes it failed.
After some experiments, I came up with following changes in the Oil Phase and eliminating Cyclomethicone (which was actually not Cyclomethicone, it was some viscous liquid):
Cetyl Alcohol 2.8%
C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate 3%
CCT 6%
Dimethicone 3%
Shea Butter 1%
GS & PEG 100 Stearate 1.3%
Glyceryl Stearate SE 0.8%GS & PEG-100 Stearate is 10% of the Oil contents.
Glyceryl Stearate SE is to lower the HLB of the emulsifier system.
Also added some Carbopol, for increasing stability.
This change is quite promising but Soaping Effect is still there.Now I am considering to incorporate:
a) some silicone-based anti foam
b) waxy ester Cetyl Palmitate to replace Cetyl AlcoholI would like to have valued comments and tips, please.
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Don’t replace Cetyl alcohol (needed for lamellar structures). Perhaps you could actually remove Glyceryl stearate SE (potassium stearate is known for soaping) and increase your Glyceryl stearate & PEG-100 stearate…or replace Glyceryl stearate SE by Ceteareth-20.
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Okay, so would 1% Cetyl Alcohol + 2% Cetyl Plamitate be fine?
As mentioned earlier, I incorporated Glyceryl Stearate SE (HLB 5.8) to lower the HLB of the emulsifier system — (a measure to reduce soaping). Replacing it with Ceteareth-20 (HLB 15.2) will increase the HLB.
Increasing GS/PEG-100 Stearate will increase soaping.
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This reply was modified 3 weeks, 5 days ago by Abu-Hafss.
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You better not replace any part of your alcohol (needed for good and stable emulsion interface) by cetyl palmitate.
HLB is best applied to non ionic ethoxylated surfactants. In your Glyceryl stearate SE you have a structuring agent (Glyceryl stearate) and an anionic emulsifier (potassium stearate, which is actually a “soap”). Just replace the Glyceryl stearate SE by any of the sugestión I gave earlier.
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After reading more comments in your thread, I need to ask what is it that you’re experiencing as soaping.
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Simply, when applied, initially it spreads easily and smoothly. Then finally it starts building white film, which becomes more with further rubbing. And when left, it vanishes after some time.
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I understand now. That white residue is mostly your fatty alcohol. If you don’t want that residue (even if it’s temporary), then you could use rheology modifiers or polymeric emulsifiers instead of waxy structuring agents (like fatty alcohols of glyceryl stearate). Those emulsions will not have the same properties as the ones with structuring agents (like lower TEWL) but would aesthetically be more in line with what you want.
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So what you are saying is that, if I don’t want that fatty alcohol residue then simply don’t use the fatty alcohols for thickening the lotion and use some thickening gum instead. But the latter won’t provide the benefit of reducing TEWL. Okay, understood but then how good quality lotions (with no soaping effect) mention Cetyl Alcohol, Stearyl Alcohol, Cetearyl Alcohol or even Stearic Acid in their ingredients list? Surely, they are dealing with soaping effect in some technical manner as discussed here https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/the-low-down-on-soaping-the-hows-and-whys-in-lotion/
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I mention that’s the quick way for not having that at all. With waxy structuring agents you’ll always have some transient white residue, although at different levels. You can actually use both rheology modifiers (not only gums) and fatty alcohols at the same time. I’d advise you to find one commercial product that you like, and search for its patent.
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Thanks for the clarification and your suggestion.
As for the rheology modifiers other than gums, do they include Versathix, Crothix or PEG-150 Distearate?Next, I have a question here.
Lets say a combination of emulsifiers A+B (High HLB + Low HLB) performs well (no soaping) with a specific oil phase. Assuming no Stearic Acid used, will that combination of emulsifiers perform well with a different oil phase? Of course, the percentages of A & B will correspond to the new oil phase. -
Can a silicone-based anti-foam be used to eliminate soaping effect?
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a) You suggested to remove Glyceryl Stearate SE and increase GS & PEG-100 Stearate, instead. I have used only GS & PEG-100 Stearate 1.5% earlier, but with Oils at 15% and Soaping Effect was present. My understanding is that, using emulsifier more than 10% of of Oils is more likely to cause soaping effect.
b) You suggested to remove Glyceryl Stearate SE (bcz it contains anionic emulsifier Potassium Stearate) and use Ceteareth-20 (which is a non-ionic emulsifier and has HLB 15.2). Which means GS & PEG-100 Stearate 1.3% + Ceteareth-20 0.3-0.8%.
I am little confused here or maybe I have wrong concept of HLB. At 1.3% GS & PEG-100 (HLB 11) it balances with RHLB of the Oil phase. If we add even a small amount of Ceteareth-20, it will increase the HLB of emulsifiers more than the RHLB of the Oil Phase. Kindly, correct me if I am wrong.
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This reply was modified 3 weeks, 5 days ago by
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Can I replace Glyceryl Stearate SE with Span 80?
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i don’t think that 0.8% GMS SE cause soaping , actually i find it from best emulsifier for getting better emulsion , may adding silicone will solve the problem (i find that ceteareth-20 not really good for emulsion texture).
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Correct, actually after lowering the HLB with 0.8% Glyceryl Stearate SE the soaping reduced quite a bit. No initial soaping, it appears after some spreading.
My antifoam is in transit, expected to reach me tomorrow. Any tips?
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Soaping in cream is normal if it doesn’t persist this is something of thinking about the box.
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Yeah, that is normal but it not desired or preferred. So there must be some ways/tricks to eliminate it. I know only a few of them, and they didn’t worked for me perfectly. Surely, I am lacking something. That’s why I am here to seek help of expertise.
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