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Hyaluronic and ferulic acids: useful, or waste of money & resources?
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Margreat:
I might suggest that you make a simple Vitamin C serum, unless you really, really, really want to make a cream. The problem with Vitamin C is that is easily oxidizes rendering it biologically inactive, so it is always a good idea, if for personal use, to only make as much as you will use over a two week period. Storing in the fridge will help as will storing your product in either an amber glass dropper bottle or opaque container.You had previously inquired about Ferulic Acid and Hyaluronic Acid, both of which I use in formulations. You can include either ingredient or leave them out.Water - QSSodium Lactate - 3%Panthenol - 1%Glycerin - 1%Ferulic Acid - 0.5%Hyaluronic Acid - 0.2% (Regular Molecular Weight)1,3-Propanediol - 30%Ascorbic Acid - 20%Preservative - QS(1) Add Sodium Lactate, Panthenol to water.(2) Add Glycerin to Ferulic Acid and mix to form a slurry. Drizzle the slurry into the Water and heat to 80C to dissolve the Ferulic Acid(Note: Ferulic Acid is a very fluffy powder than is very difficult to wet … it simply floats on the water. Making a slurry solves this problem)(3) Cool down to 40C and add the Hyaluronic Acid through a sifter while stirring the water. You can either let it sit for 3 hours to hydrate or mix it in with a homogenizer. The regular weight Hyaluronic Acid with thicken the serum besides providing a moisture film-barrier.(4) Add individually and in sequence while stirring: 1-3 Propanediol, Ascorbic Acid, Preservative.(Note: This formulation yields a native pH of 3.5 without having to add Citric Acid or other pH adjuster.) -
Thanks so much for all the help, people!
Instead of propanediol in the serum recipe that Mark Broussard has so generously given, could I successfully use any of these?:
sorbitol
propylene glycol
dipropylene glycolSome cosmetic ingredients are VERY hard to get up here in Canada for “regular people”, thus my asking about substitutions for propanediol.
I had thought a cream or lotion would work because the article in The Beauty Brains indicated that so long as the pH is 3.5 or less, the vitamin C would be stable, but, what do I know?
I only have the following with which to mix my concoctions. Which would be better for Mark’s serum recipe?:
hand mixer
stick blender (an older model that actually has variable speeds vs. the newer, stupider ones with fixed speeds. Can an inanimate object be stupid? Yes! ) -
1,3-Propanediol is usually propylene glycol.
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@Margreat:
You can use either Propylene Glycol (1,2 Propanediol), 1-3 Propanediol or Diproplyene Glycol … they are pretty much interchangeable for this purpose. Nix Sorbitol.You can use either the hand mixer or the stick blender. Be mindful that a stick blender may introduce lots of entrained bubbles into your batch unless you are making a relatively large volume. -
This is an interesting thread.
I am a believer in HA & FE combo.@Perry, What about adding a carrier that can will take both through the skin barrier, such as DMSO? -
@braveheart - is there evidence that that actually works? (e.g. some kind of peer reviewed, placebo controlled study)
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Perry, good points.
I do remember the 2 interviews with the great Johann Wiechers that was working on a formulator based on science of adding such actives & appropriate vehicles to skin care. From what he was explaining the above combo could be beneficial?FYI on Johann Wiechers
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Be sure to consult with a Regulatory person or a Patent Attorney before making an Ascobic Acid/Ferullic acid product.
http://www.google.com/patents/US7179841
In my experience this is a case where L’Oreal WILL pursue patent infringement if you sell the final product. Lotioncrafter now warns that the FA/Ascorbic acid kit they sell is only for personal use. They were contacted by L’Oreal in the past.
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The weak point in the patent is that it specifically states that the patented formulation has a pH of 2.5 to 3.0. There are many companies with CE Ferulic Acid serums on the market … at a pH of 3.1 to 3.5. But, most also vary their ingredients, by using other forms of Vitamin C, for instance. The patent also specifically states that the solvents are diethylene glycol and 1,2-Propanediol and that the preservative is Phenoxyethanol. There are lots of holes in the patent and several companies have exploited those weaknesses or oversights in the patented formulation.
The problem with the Lotioncrafter kit is that it specifically uses the exact ingredients as Skinceuticals per the patent. -
@MarkBroussard, unfortunately, that thinking has gotten a lot of chemists and companies in a fair amount of hot water, legally speaking.
The door to this is opened by what is called the “Doctrine of Equivalents”, in US patent law.Anyone not a lawyer can see how confusing this is. That’s why we always suggest consulting a lawyer when you run into a patent problem.But…it’s the second part of this issue that’s the real concern. Whether or not you are actually infringing on a patent (and only a judge can determine this), a big company can easily cost you many thousands of dollars in legal bills, at a minimal cost to themselves. That, plus the accompanying hit to the company’s reputation, (no one really wants to be seen as stealing ideas) is what deters most companies from attempting anything questionable. -
I have tried various antioxidants (I’m my own guinea pig) and different combinations in the past two years and while I believe that IF I take to the market it won’t (will never) infringe on their patents, I think their patent just states (and even uses in their formulation) only L-ascorbic acid.
In fact, after this thread opened up, I went ahead to make a formulation, which I am extremely pleased with, without Vitamin C and I think my new antioxidant combination is much better and more effective. For example, it is said green tea and CoQ10 are (individually) much more effective than Vitamin C.Overall, I think the person/company that makes the loudest noise about their antioxidant cream will win in the marketplace. -
@BobZ: Good point. In this particular case, various companies have had Vitamin CE Ferulic Acid serums on the market for some number of years now. The most notable being Paula’s Choice who uses the exact percentages of Ascorbic Acid, Vitamin E and Ferulic Acid as in the patent. That goes right to the heart of the functional equivalence issue.
I am unaware of any patent violation claims against any of these companies by the patent holder (assignee). Perhaps they simply do not think the Doctrine of Equivalents applies, don’t think there is a violation, or don’t think it is worth their time and effort to pursue. -
If “they” come after someone like me, even the public will cry out against them
@the experts, I feel excited to be learning from y’all. Thanks so much for sharing your thoughts. -
@MarkBroussard I’ve been wondering too about how these companies don’t get in trouble. One possibility is that they have a licensing agreement.
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Possibly, but all of these companies sell their serum for at least 50% less than Skinceuticals. Why license out your core claim (Vitamin C, Vitamin E, Ferulic Acid) to various companies who are going to sell their products at a significant discount to yours?
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I very much doubt the vast licensing that will cheapen their own. In fact, I also doubt they are making much from it to be bothered pursuing people. And who knows, maybe they attempted but considered that it will be a waste of time simply because the chemistry of Ascorbic Acid is as vast as the oceans. It amazes me why they bothered patenting it in the first instance, perhaps it was to fend off major rivals and not the mushroom companies around the world.
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In the last 5 years I have encountered two (2) lines that were contacted via Registered Mail with a Cease and Desist on their Vitamin C/Ferulic acid combinations. In both cases they folded rather than deal with L’Oreal’s company Counsel.
In the end I would run it buy a Regulatory Expert first. Attorneys we are not.
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@microformulatio
Curious, were they using Ascorbic Acid or another Vitamin C derivative? Wondering just how different their formulas were from the patented formulation.
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Does anyone know the link to the patent, please? I want to peruse and send it to someone. Thanks.
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It was L-Ascorbic acid and Ferulic acid. I am unsure of the overall Formulation. I sent them on to a Regulatory Expert and they pulled their products. They were cold emails to my website.
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Interesting. Here are some products currently on the market:Skinceuticals:
Water, Ethoxydiglycol, L Ascorbic Acid, Propylene Glycol, Glycerin, Laureth 23, Alpha Tocopherol, Phenoxyethanol, Triethanolamine, Ferulic Acid, Panthenol, Sodium Hyaluronate
Cosmetic Skin Solutions:Water/Aqua/Eau, L-Ascorbic Acid (Topical Vitamin C), Propylene Glycol, Ethoxydiglycol, Butylene Glycol, Laureth-23, Zinc Sulfate, Glycerol, Alpha Tocopherol (Vitamin E), Triethanolamine, Ferulic Acid, Phenoxyethanol, D-Panthenol, Hyaluronic Acid.
Paula’s Choice:Water, Ascorbic Acid, Ethoxydiglycol, PPG-26 Buteth-26, PEG-40 Hydrogenated Castor Oil, Tocopherol, Ferulic Acid, Sodium Hyaluronate, Acetyl Octapeptide-3, Glycerin, Panthenol, Sodium Metabisulfite, Triethanolamine, Phenoxyethanol.Timeless Skin Care:Water, Ethoxydiglycol, L-Ascorbic Acid, Propylene Glycol, Alpha Tocopherol, Polysorbate 80, Panthenol, Ferulic Acid, Sodium Hyaluronate, Benzylalcohol, Dehydroacetic Acid, Fragrance.Mad Hippie:Water Deionized, Vitamin C (Sodium Ascorbyl Phosphate), Alkyl Benzoate, Vegetable Glycerin, Water, Glycerin, Sodium Levulinate, Sodium Anisate, Clary Sage (Salvia Sclarea), Grapefruit (Citrus Grandis), Hyaluronic acid, Amorphophallus Konjac Root Powder, Aloe Barbadensis Leaf, Vitamin E (Tocotrienol), Ferulic acid, Chamomile Flower Extract (Recutita Matricaria), Sodium Phytate, Xanthum Gum, Hydroxyethylcellulose -
@Ruben ….. Thanks
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Interesting discussion! From the scientific or clinical/dermatological point of view my answer for the primary question is “waste money and resources” unless a customer(marketing or salesmen) wants to get a fancy (“natural”) formulation or merely get up the price for the final product.
I’ve been working a lot with HA and FA and I can’t tell they really work as they are advertised if we compare to other trivial ingredients.. There are plenty approaches to formulate a really working product without spending such big money and using the above mentioned petrolatum is just an example. Just try to combine it with glycols, urea, some salts and gelling agent and you get really nice product.I still don’t see any convincing data or evidence of advantages of the topical use of HA or FA. -
I am sure the above lines have either made arrangements or could be fighting the patent. In the end. we are not attorneys. I would not infringe upon the patent myself without the go ahead from a patent attorney or a Regulatory Expert. I have consulted someone who is the likely the most experienced in Cosmetics and he has advised against infringing on the patent. I have to side 100% plus with Bob Zonis on this one.
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