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Best Montanov textural partner to pair with 165 in creams…
I have had some issues when pairing any combination of Montanov L, 68, and 202.
Whenever I pair one of them with165….no issues at all.
I am a textural fanatic, and that is what led me to the Montanov’s to begin with. But in the name of a stress free life, I think I will return to the 165 fold.
Does anyone have knowledge of which of the 3 Montanovs (L, 68 or 202) is most likely to make rich feeling cream without a greasy texture when paired with 165?
Looking for a combo for a hand cream…and a night cream.
Additional info…. I include a small amount of GSC as a Co-emulsifier, and also include a little carbomer and Aristoflex AVC mainly as textural enhancers.
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14 Replies
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Perhaps only Montanov 68, unless you can get some of the 82 to test out if it’s reaching your expectations.
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I have made two of the three possible combos @jemolian
165 (3%)+ M 68 (2%)
165 + M 202 (same ratios)Will make the third combo (L) soon.
Could definitely feel a difference….all though from a hand cream perspective… I think I actually preferred the M 202 version. Simply because it is my presupposition that it should vanish quickly, and feel moisturized with out oils left on the surface (even though oils were used).
I come to cosmetics with a wonderful background…. Never used ANY of them before. So I have no preconceived ideas….only what feels good and right to me. So far…what I like…others have liked as well…hehehe.
Somehow I think that ‘Rich Touch’ might translate to… ‘residual feel of oils’?
They do use the word… Unctuous (with M68)….hehhee…not really in my everyday vocabulary….but looked it up….”Oily”.
There might be a touch more slip in the M68 (upon application)….but nothing I couldn’t create through other measures.
I think the M68 texture might be perfect on the slate for the Night Cream.
After 5 to 10 minutes, I think the 202 hand skin…still retained better slip and playtime, without any feel of a residual product…just amazingly soft skin on an old dude.
Don’t get me wrong…they are both crazy good. (As always…plenty of polymerics, silicones, carbomer and esters playing tricks in there.)
Thank you as always for accessing such wonderful illustrations.
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I think with the 202, it’s relatively light and non bodying, so in case you need to add anymore thickness to it via another fatty alcohol or other waxes i think it should work out. More so with the mattifying finish that it has, unless your target customers prefer a more glossy look when applied.
Normally i’d make my body / hand cream with just 202, which is quite light weight. In terms of the hands wise, i’d say it’s what i’d prefer. My colleague prefer something thicker, so i used the 68.
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My M 202/165 hand cream…has Softisan, Illipe butter, and some acai sterols, candelilla wax and a kiss of cocoa butter….so they are bringing the richness to the table.
BTW…I have tried just about all the butters….and the Danish refined Illipe has a skin softening aspect like I have not found in ANY of the other butters….and done with no residual shine or surface grease.
…oh and lest I forget…Pharma had me cook down some Hawaiian Noni…and throw in there.
Plus the whole Cica thing. -
Graillotion said:BTW…I have tried just about all the butters….and the Danish refined Illipe has a skin softening aspect like I have not found in ANY of the other butters….and done with no residual shine or surface grease.
Another one to add to my list of butters to try that you’ve recommended! How do you find it feels and softens compared to kpangnan butter?
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helenhelen said:Graillotion said:BTW…I have tried just about all the butters….and the Danish refined Illipe has a skin softening aspect like I have not found in ANY of the other butters….and done with no residual shine or surface grease.
Another one to add to my list of butters to try that you’ve recommended! How do you find it feels and softens compared to kpangnan butter?
Arrgh…how to describe….
When I evaluate butters…there are so many aspects…from initial feel…to silkiness…greasiness…absorption….rub in texture…and shine…to how they feel 10-15 min after application…etc. But let me try.I have a high aversion to anything oily/greasy…and not quite as much….things that make me shiny. ::smile:
Note context: All butters were sourced from ICSC (Denmark). There is out of this world variability…between suppliers so this is actually an important note. (Also to be noted… ICSC’s more refined butters are less likely to have variability, batch to batch.)
So of the butters (I have tried)….Murumuru is the most silky…and gives the most glide at time of application….so it has its place.
Illipe…does not have any type of neat feel upon application that will blow your mind. In fact it was not until about 10 minutes after application…that I gave it a ‘wow’. Ever felt that perfectly oiled piece of leather??? Well that is what the back of the hand that I applied the Illipe on felt like (after 10-15 min). I could not stop touching it…hehehe…not something that usually happens.
So therefore…Illipe will not be helpful in getting that first impression rose. But if you want a product that will bring them back…. Find a way to make that first impression another way…but keeps the lasting impression that Illipe can give.
By the way….if an ingredient wants to get my attention….it is the 15 min after application feel….that is the way to this man’s heart.
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Sorry for my curiosity and stupidity.Why 165>Montanovs? What’s the advantage of this combo? Will this form a lamellar network?Would this combo give a richer feel than 165 + linear emulsifier combo? -
Graillotion said:helenhelen said:Graillotion said:BTW…I have tried just about all the butters….and the Danish refined Illipe has a skin softening aspect like I have not found in ANY of the other butters….and done with no residual shine or surface grease.
Another one to add to my list of butters to try that you’ve recommended! How do you find it feels and softens compared to kpangnan butter?
Arrgh…how to describe….
When I evaluate butters…there are so many aspects…from initial feel…to silkiness…greasiness…absorption….rub in texture…and shine…to how they feel 10-15 min after application…etc. But let me try.I have a high aversion to anything oily/greasy…and not quite as much….things that make me shiny. ::smile:
Note context: All butters were sourced from ICSC (Denmark). There is out of this world variability…between suppliers so this is actually an important note. (Also to be noted… ICSC’s more refined butters are less likely to have variability, batch to batch.)
So of the butters (I have tried)….Murumuru is the most silky…and gives the most glide at time of application….so it has its place.
Illipe…does not have any type of neat feel upon application that will blow your mind. In fact it was not until about 10 minutes after application…that I gave it a ‘wow’. Ever felt that perfectly oiled piece of leather??? Well that is what the back of the hand that I applied the Illipe on felt like (after 10-15 min). I could not stop touching it…hehehe…not something that usually happens.
So therefore…Illipe will not be helpful in getting that first impression rose. But if you want a product that will bring them back…. Find a way to make that first impression another way…but keeps the lasting impression that Illipe can give.
By the way….if an ingredient wants to get my attention….it is the 15 min after application feel….that is the way to this man’s heart.
Thank you for taking the time to describe illipe butter for me. I bought some to try (just from a quick and easy source, not ICSC) and I see what you mean about the deep softening. For me, it feels very “complete” on the skin compared to other butters. Most butters (and many veg oils too) leave my skin feeling like there is something not quite right… like it is oily but a bit depleted. But illipe seems to be more “rounded”, adding something substantive (but not too waxy) into the skin to keep it supple and protected (like a leather protectant). I can see how it would be nice in a hand cream.
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helenhelen said:Graillotion said:helenhelen said:
Thank you for taking the time to describe illipe butter for me. I bought some to try (just from a quick and easy source, not ICSC) and I see what you mean about the deep softening. For me, it feels very “complete” on the skin compared to other butters. Most butters (and many veg oils too) leave my skin feeling like there is something not quite right… like it is oily but a bit depleted. But illipe seems to be more “rounded”, adding something substantive (but not too waxy) into the skin to keep it supple and protected (like a leather protectant). I can see how it would be nice in a hand cream.
Just curious….. I want to pair the Illipe…with another butter in this hand cream. What in your opinion (and anyone else that wants to chime in)… would be a good pairing….at first I was thinking cocoa…but after doing some neat testing yesterday….figured they are too similar.
Kokum…comes to mind…just for the higher melting point…for a product (small hand cream for purse)… that won’t be just sitting on the bathroom counter. (Also seems to be a little bit the rage now.)
Cupuacu… also comes to mind…
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Pattsi said:Sorry for my curiosity and stupidity.Why 165>Montanovs? What’s the advantage of this combo? Will this form a lamellar network?Would this combo give a richer feel than 165 + linear emulsifier combo?
Well….Richer is rarely what I chase….(except on the night cream I am working on). So what I chase is two-fold….first impression texture…and long term moisturization….aka … lamellar network among other aspects. (Not saying my products lack richness…that just comes to the party other ways…and do not rely entirely on the emulsifier.)
So for me….first impression texture amongst the products (emulsifiers) I have worked with…and of course this is just personal opinion….is most easily acquired with Mont. 202. So you can tell my personal opinion leans towards lightness over richness. I have naturally oily skin on my face.
So for me….the Montanov’s are not the easiest to formulate with. Adding 165 makes everything effortless…so my objective is to maintain most of the characteristics I have grown fond of from the Montanovs…yet have the security that the 165 offers.
And yes…when I chase richness…I switch from M 202 to M 68.
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Graillotion said:helenhelen said:Graillotion said:helenhelen said:
Thank you for taking the time to describe illipe butter for me. I bought some to try (just from a quick and easy source, not ICSC) and I see what you mean about the deep softening. For me, it feels very “complete” on the skin compared to other butters. Most butters (and many veg oils too) leave my skin feeling like there is something not quite right… like it is oily but a bit depleted. But illipe seems to be more “rounded”, adding something substantive (but not too waxy) into the skin to keep it supple and protected (like a leather protectant). I can see how it would be nice in a hand cream.
Just curious….. I want to pair the Illipe…with another butter in this hand cream. What in your opinion (and anyone else that wants to chime in)… would be a good pairing….at first I was thinking cocoa…but after doing some neat testing yesterday….figured they are too similar.
Kokum…comes to mind…just for the higher melting point…for a product (small hand cream for purse)… that won’t be just sitting on the bathroom counter. (Also seems to be a little bit the rage now.)
Cupuacu… also comes to mind…
Well I really like kpangnan butter which I bought based on your mentions of it. I swapped mango butter out for it as kpangnan is smoother to apply and has that nice silky afterfeel that I haven’t felt in other butters. The old mango butter feels really crude in comparison.
I haven’t really seen any wow effect from cupuacu (I tried a couple of refined ones). It has a dry afterfeel, and I didn’t find any benefit from its supposed water holding properties.
I recommend you try shea oil. It has a deep moisturising effect without the surface oiliness you get from oils like avocado oil, and without the drag of a butter.
I’m wondering if it’s the palmitic acid in the illipe butter that my skin likes. When I look at the fatty acid profiles of all the oils and butters I like, they’ve all got relatively high palmitic acid content. I’ve ordered some to try adding neat.
It’s funny you mention the word, “unctuous” because it’s what I am always aiming for. My notes on hand/body creams I’ve made often say “not unctuous enough”. I want something that is of whipped double cream consistency, but that melts and glides over the skin with no drag and then absorbs with no oily afterfeel, but a silky and lightly protected feel.
As a benchmark for feel, try Elemis Skin Nourishing Body Cream https://uk.elemis.com/skin-nourishing-body-cream.html. It feels incredible going on. It glides evanescently over the skin as if you’re stroking a bit of silk fabric over the skin, then has a final perceptible squish/melt into the skin with literally zero drag at any point. Then the skin is left with a slightly powdery, silky and light protective feel. I don’t like any other Elemis body products… unlike their face creams, I think they all feel quite cheap and are not very moisturising. But this one uses the emulsifier, Biophilic H, which I think is what gives it that soft feel, along with the pentaerythrityl distearate (Cutina PES) wax. I’ve used Biophilic H before but I couldn’t get it to work for me.. the process is too long winded (there’s an extra step to hydrate the hydrogenated lecithin) and it’s very expensive as well. It does have a nice feel though.. it also contains palmitic acid as an ingredient which I always wondered was the secret to the feel. Also, I’ve noticed Elemis use Dicaprylyl Carbonate and Isononyl Isononanoate in all their face and body creams. As someone else already mentioned somewhere, Dicaprylyl Carbonate is worth getting hold of. It is cushioned, and leaves a slightly powdery but not “dry dry” finish, and I personally find it more moisturising than other light esters.
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Have you tried Polyglyceryl 6 distearate from Lonzo?
It can make stable emulsion at %1 use
It costs 4 times less than cetearyl Glucoside (for me)
Doesn’t need co emulsifier
Very good skin feel
very easy viscosity control.
%2 pg6 distearate with No fatty alcohol makes stable very low viscosity lotion. %1 pg6 distearate and %3 fatty alcohol makes stable cream. -
helenhelen said:Graillotion said:helenhelen said:Graillotion said:helenhelen said:
As a benchmark for feel, try Elemis Skin Nourishing Body Cream https://uk.elemis.com/skin-nourishing-body-cream.html. It feels incredible going on. It glides evanescently over the skin as if you’re stroking a bit of silk fabric over the skin, then has a final perceptible squish/melt into the skin with literally zero drag at any point. Then the skin is left with a slightly powdery, silky and light protective feel. I don’t like any other Elemis body products… unlike their face creams, I think they all feel quite cheap and are not very moisturising. But this one uses the emulsifier, Biophilic H, which I think is what gives it that soft feel, along with the pentaerythrityl distearate (Cutina PES) wax. I’ve used Biophilic H before but I couldn’t get it to work for me.. the process is too long winded (there’s an extra step to hydrate the hydrogenated lecithin) and it’s very expensive as well. It does have a nice feel though.. it also contains palmitic acid as an ingredient which I always wondered was the secret to the feel. Also, I’ve noticed Elemis use Dicaprylyl Carbonate and Isononyl Isononanoate in all their face and body creams. As someone else already mentioned somewhere, Dicaprylyl Carbonate is worth getting hold of. It is cushioned, and leaves a slightly powdery but not “dry dry” finish, and I personally find it more moisturising than other light esters.
I was unable to find Dicaprylyl Carbonate / Cetiol CC at the re-packer level in the US.
I did make the final test combination with the three Montanov’s with 165…this time L…and after 20+ minutes…certainly had an enhanced feel over 202 and 68. Samples went out to 4 testers…so we’ll see if they concur.
Now I will play with butters and candelilla levels.
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Cetiol CC is from Trulux (Australia). Unfortunately, I couldn’t find a USA repacker for Fermentoil, either.
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