[coco]

@Graillotion Not too sure if Brassica Alcohol is the same as Brassica Glycerides. However this shop here in the US carries the later: https://essentialwholesale.com/brassica-glycerides

I love how sleek it feels. However I feel like it can get quite waxy at times. Let me know what you think if you try it out. 

[coco]

Cocamidopropyl betaine
disodium cocoamphodiacetate
Sodium C14-16 Olefin Sulfonate
sodium Cocoyl Glutamate
Decyl, Lauryl glucoside, etc,
those are some mild surfactants that are good at cleansing. (Available at Formulator sample shop or making cosmetics)
Add the blend maybe at 30%-40%? (Depending how clean you want your hair)

Don’t just add 1 surfactant, make your own mix or buy some blend like the extra mild iselux extra mild. The more blend, the milder… (makeyourown.buzz)

Add some quats: Polyquat 7 at 2% or Guarcat at 0.4% (FSS or Lotioncrafter or Making Cosmetics)

Add a very good reliable preservative unless you will be using this within literally a few days and stored in the fridge. Little living things feeding off your product and depositing into your hair/ skin is not what you want. 

Add some water soluble Dimethicone (amodimethicone)if you don’t mind the “cone” to make hair softer and easier to comb. (Making cosmetics).

The more research you do on your own the more you will learn. 

[coco]

@Graillotion lol will sure do, thnx. 

[coco]

Graillotion said:

coco said:

I don’t know but I do have it currently in my Thai checkout bag lol. 

Yes…I saw it there….but it had a 1 Kg minimum….when I took a look???

@Graillotion, yeah unfortunately that’s true. 

[coco]

That looks beautiful! If I see that texture on a website, I’m buying the product right away! 

@Paprik is right tho. The key is the mildness of the surfactants you are using, not so much those extras. They won’t stay long enough on the body to do what they are supposed to do. Don’t take our words for it. Make two different types of the same cleanser, one with and one without those ingredients. And see for yourself if you notice anything. You could keep at 0.1 or less for claim in you do agree that it doesn’t do much. 

When it comes to glycerine in cleansers, this group often don’t recommend. I performed the test above and noticed something different when glycerin is not included. Just test before you literally waste some expensive products. 

[coco]

@Graillotion no, I haven’t. Yeaah, another ingredient I have to look for, how fun! Lol thank you so much tho. Honestly I doubt EO may even be the issue. Last time I made it, I added everything that was not pure water, glycerine, gums and emollient at the cool down phase at 35C. I could start seeing instability (around the glass) before adding any cool down ingredient. Right now everything looks solid after 3 days however I can definitely see separation around the edges when I look close. Can you believe I even change supplier at some point? Urg.. 

[coco]

I don’t know but I do have it currently in my Thai checkout bag lol. 

[coco]

@Anca_Formulator it seems like you and I are dead set on using this emulsifier. I’ve read your suggestions also the guidelines working with this emulsifier. I’ve spent so much money and time trying to make it work. Yes the formula has improved as in not destabilizing instantly however the formula remains weak and you can see separation when you look closely. To say that I am sick an tired it’s an understatement! I have been on this since May of last year. Out of all the products I have formulated (and there were some truly challenging ones), this one remain my absolute headache!! I finally reached out to the manufacturer. Truly hope they can help.
The product I am making is a pretty simple one, as it is intended for the most sensitive skin. There is nothing crazy in it. In fact, I have made this multiple times with different emulsifiers without problems. Playing around emulsifiers and co-emulsifiers too much with Heliosoft does end up changing the skin feel of my product which defeat the whole purpose of this product. The product was inspired by Heliosoft, so taking it out or making it co-surfactant is just not working for me. I am going bald!!  

[coco]

@Graillotion, for Isononyl Isononanoate, there is actually a US supplier that does repacking. They will sell you whichever amount you’d like plus repacking fees. AE Chemist or something… based in NJ I believe.

Then, there’s the Thai website. I absolutely love that ester. Def my favorite lipid! I omitted out of many products because of availability. I wish I knew earlier I could get 1kg here in America. 

[coco]

Very interesting reading! A lot made much more sense. Thank you everyone. 

@Pharma thank you for providing enough info on Azelaic Acid. There was only so much I could found on the internet about it. 

@Graillotion can’t thank you enough. I have learnt so much from you, you probably have no idea 😂 . Or you probably do since you are the kings on this page. 

I need to go back and recheck the whole formulation. I appreciate everyone’s input.

[coco]

@Pharma thank you so much for the explanation. I am finding out the hard way about Azelaic Acid. So what is you resolution for someone waiting to make a serum with this ingredient. Last time I made it, it made the emulsion unstable. Now (without adding to the emulsion) it recrystallized upon cooling. Altho I have taken measures to properly dissolve. I dissolved it in a mix of Butylene Glycol, Propanediol, DMI and water at no higher than 50 degree F. Now I’m brainstorming what to do next. 

[coco]

@PhilGeis oh! Caprylyl Glycol EHG is considered weak? What’s wrong with it? 

Btw: I have seen some of the manufacturer formulation with Sepinov. They used Euxyl K900 and Euxyl K903 a lot. I used both and again they considerably thinned out the emulsion. That’s 3 preservatives thinning out the emulsion at .5%. to remediate the issue I added more of the Sepinov which is not something I desired. 

Now on to the chelators. I assumed from my readings and research that Sodium Phytate wouldn’t be a too great choice so I opted for Tetrasodium Glutamate C. which are the only 2 I preferred using. It broke the gel miserably! (EDTA thinned it out)

To my surprise, some of my actives had no effect on the polymer or emulsion, such as anything “ferment”. The glycerin extracts did ok… I guess.

I have moved on to 5% oil phase with 1% Sepinov (would you recommend increasing to avoid too much thinning out?)

Lactic Acid did not break the polymer. Thank you @Graillotion.

All and all with 1% Sepinov, my emulsion is very thin and watery. 

By all means, I thought this was an easy emulsifier? People who use Sepinov intensely, please join in. 

[coco]

@Pharma @Graillotion
I am actually trying to make an 3-5% Azelaic acid serum with this. Sepinov supposedly can support some AHA solutions up to 10%. But now I’m nervous. Also thinking of adding DMI and a few plant extracts. Am I too optimistic? 

[coco]

I will try that out! Thank you guys! @Pharma @Graillotion

[coco]

Anca_Formulator said:

@coco This is my favorite emulsifier. I have made probably close to 100 emulsions with it and I’ve never had it separate (mind you only 3 out of those had essential oils and they are currently undergoing stability, so far so good, but I’ll report back). I’ve attached the mfg guidelines @Graillotion quoted which also has a tips and tricks section…

But as others said, I make absolutely sure there’s nothing in it that could destabilize it and I bolster the heck out of it with a co-emulsifier (gelling agent), fatty alcohol, plenty of humectants to bind water. I also use sodium phytate at 0.2% and Siligel at 1%.

So let’s go through the potential destabilizers:

1. Is your hydrosol or any of your water-soluble ingredients/extracts preserved with Leucidal (lactobacillus ferment)? Your hydrolized protein?

2. It doesn’t tolerate electrolytes well, so Na Phytate is all I have in mine.  Geogard has sodium in it.

3. I put all of my oils in the hot oil phase, I don’t add them during cool down. I do have a couple of heat sensitive oils, but I add them at the tail end of the hot oil phase. Natrasil can also go in the hot oil phase.

4. The Geogard/Euxyl combo you are using is most effective at lower pH (4.8-5). Heliosoft is destabilized at ph lower than 5. I tried this preservative combo and it wasn’t stable…pH of 4.8 is a fail. 

So try these firtst adn then see of your EO still gives you trouble. Some, not all EOs can destabilize it, but it’s trial and error…

Hope this helps. good luck. 

I haven’t been there in few days and only seeing this now. I actually got here through Google today. I was ready to give up on this emulsifier after just another attempt. I did everything you said above about “bolstering” it. Anything you can think of, it’s even getting my ingredients list to be longer. Now on to the destabilizers, I removed the hydrosol, of course still kept some of those things you mentioned. Your comment IS SO VALUABLE!! I can’t thank you enough. About to go and apply them all and see. 

[coco]

Thank you everyone. Will try that! I appreciate.

[coco]

I just made a similar post asking for help. My chamomile EO destabilized my Heliosoft + Siligel emulsion. 

[coco]

Btw, what is mfg?

[coco]

You summed it up well! Amazing emulsifier when it comes to sensory but a very weak one I have noticed. It is a very fragile emulsifier imo. Thank you so very much for your suggestions and recommendations. I really appreciate @Graillotion