[Abdullah]

It is %30 Glucoside and %70 alcohols

[Abdullah]

@ngarayeva001 they convert salicylic acid to sodium salicylate

[Abdullah]

Yes these are strong preservatives. At that time i was using geogard 221 which is not very strong as these two and not very water soluble. 

Wish you success. 

[Abdullah]

@Paprik yes

[Abdullah]

Some times we do something because we like it or because we can’t do otherwise. I did the same. I liked Glyceryl Caprylate as preservative because it had natural name, was mild and inexpensive. Although I knew it is not very effective Preservative, i was hopping that someone tell me it is a robust Preservative. Change is the best thing we can do. 

I bet if you make the Product one phase, it would be more effective with less cost and you would like it. 

[Abdullah]

emma1985 said:

I’m not sure what you mean by in expense of quality. This product is an intentionally bi-phase product using high quality ingredients. It’s not a failed emulsion. There is no emulsifier.

I mean you add each ingredient at certain percentage to work best. If the percentage changes during use they will not have that effect any more. For example if you use %4 Glycerin and that work best, if that change to %2 or %8 that will not be the same as %4 in effectiveness of feeling. 

If the consumer can use the Product without any effort, need to shake several times in each application is a minus point. 

No emulsifier mean your product will be water thin and runny. Who prefer a runny Product over some viscosity?

You will not be able to use a lot of good ingredient like butters, waxes, allantoin, petrolatum, etc.

You use %50 oil phase because you know the bad thing is going to happen. That also increase your cost. I use %10 oil phase, it works well and no worries.

You use %50 oil, that would not make a noticable difference if it change to %90 or %10. what about ingredients that are used at small amounts and make a difference? They will have negative effects like less efficacy or irritation if percentage increased or decreased. Ingredients like preservatives, AHA/BHA, retinol, perfume, etc.

For how much time have you used such Products and how many bottles that you are saying the ratio changes from 50/50 to 40/60? I have used my such (failed) Products for years and i know if you don’t use emulsifier the oil and water separate in seconds not even minutes and at the ends of 100g bottle there always is only water phase left. 

For your preservatives, can you tell how much do you use. I need to see how it will work. When i recalled my bi phase Products the preservation system didn’t work for more than a month or two no matter what and for stable versions i have samples from 2 years ago that are fine. Same formula and same amount of same preservative. 

Separated phase is better that than no emulsifier. At least they will remain mixed a few minutes after shaking.

Droppers will be worse because the amount inside the dropper will not mix with rest of it when you shake the bottle.

[Abdullah]

@EVchem thanks for sharing your experience. 
If i mix surfactants first and then add it to thickened water phase with gum the final viscosity is higher than if add surfactants one by one to gum thickened water phase.

I don’t notice any difference in performance

[Abdullah]

You can add NACL to o/w emulsion and make it unstable and call it bi phase. Or don’t use any emulsifier and call it bi phase.

What i want to know is that are you making bi phase Product in expense of the quality because it is a trend or it has any benefit too that stable emulsion doesn’t have? 

I have made several bi phase Products in my practices not by intention but because i wasn’t able to stabilize the emulsions as @PhilGeis said. And in my experience the composition of ingredients will be different at the beginnings and ends of the bottle and you can feel it. At beginning what you are using will have more of the oil phase ingredients and at the end it will have more of water phase ingredients.

[Abdullah]

@Paprik the gum doesn’t mix correctly in surfactant solutions as i have experienced. 

[Abdullah]

@chemicalmatt so hard water will help the deposition for conditioners like Amodimethicone. Did i get your point? 

[Abdullah]

@Perry thanks. 

[Abdullah]

@Perry i wanted to use it for skin benefit, not just claim. Looks i should go to tocopherol. 

[Abdullah]

Apply them in form of leave on Product. That way the benefits would be much better. And you would see if they really do any benefit or not. 

[Abdullah]

@MarkBroussard thanks

[Abdullah]

@MarkBroussard So if i add %10 tocopheryl acetate in a Product it would be like %0.6 tocopherol. Am i correct? 

[Abdullah]

As @Perry said This formula isn’t following proper labeling rules and i think this product doesn’t have any of these ingredients except surfactants and conditioner. 

It also doesn’t have water on it’s list ????

[Abdullah]

Aziz said:

Abdullah said:

For large batch you can heat only 20x water than HPMC and mix. For example if you use %0.3 HPMC, mix with %6 of heated water and then add to cold water if your system is cold process and you want to save money and time by not heating %1/3 of water phase

I am new to use HPMC. I want to know what is the effect of other thickners like NaCl, CAPB, CDEA ,GDS, etc when thicken with HPMC . How much I can reduce them ? Please share your experience. 

HPMC is a thickner. By adding this you will need less of other thickners. How much? That depends on entire formula and how much viscosity you want

[Abdullah]

That is good as @MarkBroussard said. 

In your serum one phase is water and water soluble ingredients. What is in another phase? 

[Abdullah]

Glyceryl Caprylate may not be stable at low pH like 3.9

[Abdullah]

MelindaNicole said:

Do you know if you are using R grade HPC? If so it won’t clump together and you can add it to the vortex of well agitated room temperature water and let it stir until it is fully hydrated. It will also thicken with other solvents like ethanol and pg. I have only used it in aqueous solutions, though.

If you are using R grade HEC it will delay hydration so that it doesn’t clump together. It needs to be stirred until fully hydrated which can take up to 25 minutes. I add it to room temperature water, but It will hydrate faster with a higher ph and temperature, but too high can cause lumping. Once it’s fully hydrated it can be heated and ph can be adjusted.

I know you didn’t mention HPMC, but I will add the instructions I used for it in case in the future you work with it. With HPMC you want to heat 1/3 of the water from the total water in your formula to 75C and then add the HPMC to vortex of agitated water, it won’t dissolve in hot water but it will disperse evenly. When the HPMC is dispersed add the rest of the room temperature water and stir for 30 minutes. When the temperature is below 25C, continue with the rest of the formula.

Instructions can vary depending on the manufacturer of the ingredient, though.
I have been using Ashland Benecel E10M HPMC, Natrosol 250 HHR CS HEC, and Klucel H CS HPC

For large batch you can heat only 20x water than HPMC and mix. For example if you use %0.3 HPMC, mix with %6 of heated water and then add to cold water if your system is cold process and you want to save money and time by not heating %1/3 of water phase

[Abdullah]

Pattsi said:

Perry said:

3. Do you really need to wear sunscreen every day? or indoors?

There’re only recommendations in textbooks.

Antony R. Young
-Risks versus benefits of population UVR exposure

I’m on frequent use side if you are at risk of skin cancer, especially Aussies basicly you are white living in hot sun.

Indoors? - I have not found anything on this yet.

let’s ask what would be the worse reasons for big companies for saying that we should apply sunscreen everyday and every two hours? 

1. To give them our money continually by purchasing and applying there sunscreens.
2. To give them more money continually by purchasing vitamin D and calcium supplements because we no longer get vit D from sun.
3. To give them more and more money continually by purchasing blood pressure drugs because we are preventing sun which is very effective in controlling blood pressure to apply to our skin.
4. To give them more and more and more money by purchasing there tanning products.
5. To give them even more money by purchasing their Products for other skin problems because black people and those who’s skins are more exposed to sun have better skin than white people and those who always hide themselves from sun.

What would be the best reason for them to say that sun is good for skin?
They don’t have any reason to say so because they would lose Bellions of money if they do so.

And one more question; how many cases of skin cancer because of sun exposure are there?

[Abdullah]

Is this a commercial Shampoo or just a formula that you want to make? 

Evey Shampoo is cleaning Shampoo. If it is not cleaning then it is not Shampoo.

If it is a commercial Product and ingredients are listed like this then don’t trust the label because they don’t know what should they write and how to write it on label.

[Abdullah]

You have to try and see if it works or not. 

Sometimes by trying we find things about an ingredient that no one has said before even the supplier.

For example the best way of adding HPMC for me is to first add it to small amount of hot water, then add that to cold water, then increase the pH. 

No one says this is a way of hydrating it but it is the that works best for me. 

[Abdullah]

PhilGeis said:

Abdullah said:

The question i think about several times a day is what does the companies that sell the largest amount of beauty products for example Shampoo do that people are buying there Products instead of there competitors?

The simple answers that every one would give is good marketing or good quality or affordable price. But this is not the right answer. If you do good job at these parts your sells will not increase or increase for a short time and then decrease again to the level before.

So what are they doing or have done that they have succeeded this much? 

You +/- describe P&G’s basic practice that has been successful globally with Pantene and Head&Shoulders - quality with effective product and advertising/ marketing.  Tho’ can add continued product improvements/”news’ - real or contrived.  
What may not be evident is the “effective” element both for product development and advertising/marketing.  Knowing consumers - what they want and what appeals to them - as well a investing in the technology  so products are (and perceived as) more effective.  There are peripheral elements shelf placement , response to consumer complaints, active patent defense, etc.

Thanks ????

[Abdullah]

Hydration of hec at different pH and temperature