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Suggestions on how to make this formula more moisturizing and less tacky
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Graillotion said:RedCoast said:try dicaprylyl ether, dicaprylyl carbonate, or neopentyl glycol diheptanoate. They’re very light and silky!Are these available from repackers in the US…I do not recall seeing them?
@Graillotion No.
You may have to go a roundabout way, as I have. Sometimes, Etsy and eBay have them in smaller quantities.FormulatorSampleShop carries some ingredients for a limited time. If you contact the store, they may have the ingredients you want in smaller quantities despite not listing them on their site.Of course, you could always request free samples (via Prospector) or get dicaprylyl carbonate through Trulux (Australia). Trulux offers free shipping on international orders over $250, so if you have a long “to try” list and/or want them in larger quantities, this may be worth the expense to you.But yeah, I’ve gotten several of the nicer emollients from overseas… UK, Germany, Australia… shipping was expensive and a pain, but IMO, it was worth it. -
@abierose yes, getting ingredients for creating cosmetics is my form of splurging, too! I could easily go broke! :pAllantoin at less than 0.5% concentrations typically doesn’t recrystallize if you dissolved it at 50 C/122 F (or above), you dispersed it well, and if you have a stable emulsion. Liquid crystal or polymeric emulsions would work. Having carbomer (carbopol 940) or xanthan gum in the formulation helps a lot, too.@Graillotion have you done the “car test” yet? AKA, imitating if a customer accidentally left it in their car on a warm, sunny spring day? It would be a good idea if you made balms or something they’d bring to fitness clubs.
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Mixing incompatible ingredients doesn’t mean the emulsion should always break. It means those ingredients will not do what you want them to do and may be some other side effects.
I was once mixing EDTA vs Ethyl Lauroyl Arginate HCl which are incompatible in emulsions. The emulsions were stable but i was felling some shortness of breath when i was applying the lotion to my body. When i found that these two are incompatible, removing each of it made a beautiful emulsion without any problem.
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@RedCoast thank you for the helpful feedback…you and @Graillotion ere immensely helpful in explaining how I should be using Allantoin. I appreciate you taking the time to explain things to me 🙂
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Abdullah said:Mixing incompatible ingredients doesn’t mean the emulsion should always break. It means those ingredients will not do what you want them to do and may be some other side effects.
I was once mixing EDTA vs Ethyl Lauroyl Arginate HCl which are incompatible in emulsions. The emulsions were stable but i was felling some shortness of breath when i was applying the lotion to my body. When i found that these two are incompatible, removing each of it made a beautiful emulsion without any problem.
Thank you for helping me understand this better. The reaction you had from using two incompatible ingredients sounds pretty scary! I will definitely be more diligent about knowing my ingredients and their compatibility with other ingredients!
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RedCoast said:Liquid crystal or polymeric emulsions would work. Having carbomer (carbopol 940) or xanthan gum in the formulation helps a lot, too.@Graillotion have you done the “car test” yet? AKA, imitating if a customer accidentally left it in their car on a warm, sunny spring day? It would be a good idea if you made balms or something they’d bring to fitness clubs.Yes… I live in warm Hawaii…and a year ago tossed a bottle of lotion in the car…where it remains to this day. Since it is 165 + GSC based….it passed with flying colors. The face creams….I have just done the window to freezer to window to freezer test. So far they have performed as hoped. The face cream is Mont 202 + GSC+Aristoflex+Carbomer….so pretty tough as well.
I have been working on abierose to add some of those finer points to her product.BTW…since fatty alcohols were a topic of discussion….one consideration is…. they all have slightly different melting points…so if you want a product that will perform at higher temps…that should be factored into your selection process.
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abierose said:@RedCoast thank you for the helpful feedback…you and @Graillotion ere immensely helpful in explaining how I should be using Allantoin. I appreciate you taking the time to explain things to me 🙂You’re welcome! The information on how to formulate with allantoin is surprisingly scarce!@Abdullah Do you think you inadvertently created an irritating fume? I didn’t know that could happen with those two ingredients!
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@RedCoast i don’t think it was fume. The smell was lavender eo that i was adding. From just smelling the Product there was no problem but after applying it to face or hand i was felling something is not good and there was some tightness my chest. No irritation. Then When i was washing my hand or face after from the Product, the problem was solved.
I was adding EDTA at first and HCl at cool down. One day i decided to add it first at water face because it was powder not liquid,i first added EDTA then when i added HCl, a white powder like thing formed on top of water that was not soluble in water. Then i made another batch without EDTA and it was easily soluble in hot water. So i figured these two are not compatible.Then I made two batches separately one with EDTA and another preservative and one with HCl and both were amazing with no problem.
Then i checked it’s compatibility with each ingredient, it was not compatible with citric acid too.
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abierose said:ggpetrov said:abierose said:@ggpetrov I agree about the feel of cetearyl alcohol and it not having a waxy feeling. 100% agree about the Glycerin. I’m fairly new to the 165 emulsifier…what would you suggest using? Thank you!
Well, I see your new formula is a big mess. First you mix the PQ 7 - which is cationic, with the Glyceryl stearate citrate - which is anionic. Also I see the Glyceryl stearate & PEG 100 is still present in the new formula. Why is that? Too much Cetearyl alcohol - I guess! Why you put the Allantoin at the cool down phase? Also, why you are need of so much oils and emolients? Why your formula doesn’t contain any polymeric thickeners? Also the percentages are totally messed up.
Thank you for your feedback. What should I expect to see when using pq7 and the gsc emulsifier together in the same formula? I haven’t had any issues with stability or anything as of yet and it is plenty thick enough…the Allantoin I have in the cool down ingredients to avoid possible crystallization from cooling too quickly…is this not accurate? Is there any reason not to have it in cool down? What about the percentages in my formula…can you be more specific? Thank you!
I don’t know what will happen if you mix an incompatible ingredients. I just don’t do that, because it doesn’t make a sense. I think you’d better read about the basics of the chemistry before making anything in that point. I use Allantoin in the all of my formulas, but I can’t imagine to put it into the cool emulsion, because it will not dissolve. The Allantoin is heat resistant, so I can’t see the problem here. What does it mean ” to avoid possible crystallization from cooling too quickly”, If you cool down your emulsion shockedly, maybe you could bring this effect. I don’t see a reason to put a PQ7 into a face cream. I haven’t worked with this ingredient. If you have to bring a conditioning effect, there are others ways - to use a cationic emulsifiers, for example. By the way I am not completely sure, but I think the Allantoin also have an anionic nature. I don’t know, just try to keep your recipes as simple as possible. If you wish to make a more complex products, you will need a lot of knowledge and experience. GSC is great emulsifier, so you could check the Evonik’s website with their example formulations, so it could be a good starting point. -
ggpetrov said:abierose said:ggpetrov said:abierose said:@ggpetrov I agree about the feel of cetearyl alcohol and it not having a waxy feeling. 100% agree about the Glycerin. I’m fairly new to the 165 emulsifier…what would you suggest using? Thank you!
Well, I see your new formula is a big mess. First you mix the PQ 7 - which is cationic, with the Glyceryl stearate citrate - which is anionic. Also I see the Glyceryl stearate & PEG 100 is still present in the new formula. Why is that? Too much Cetearyl alcohol - I guess! Why you put the Allantoin at the cool down phase? Also, why you are need of so much oils and emolients? Why your formula doesn’t contain any polymeric thickeners? Also the percentages are totally messed up.
Thank you for your feedback. What should I expect to see when using pq7 and the gsc emulsifier together in the same formula? I haven’t had any issues with stability or anything as of yet and it is plenty thick enough…the Allantoin I have in the cool down ingredients to avoid possible crystallization from cooling too quickly…is this not accurate? Is there any reason not to have it in cool down? What about the percentages in my formula…can you be more specific? Thank you!
I don’t know what will happen if you mix an incompatible ingredients. I just don’t do that, because it doesn’t make a sense. I think you’d better read about the basics of the chemistry before making anything in that point. I use Allantoin in the all of my formulas, but I can’t imagine to put it into the cool emulsion, because it will not dissolve. The Allantoin is heat resistant, so I can’t see the problem here. What does it mean ” to avoid possible crystallization from cooling too quickly”, If you cool down your emulsion shockedly, maybe you could bring this effect. I don’t see a reason to put a PQ7 into a face cream. I haven’t worked with this ingredient. If you have to bring a conditioning effect, there are others ways - to use a cationic emulsifiers, for example. By the way I am not completely sure, but I think the Allantoin also have an anionic nature. I don’t know, just try to keep your recipes as simple as possible. If you wish to make a more complex products, you will need a lot of knowledge and experience. GSC is great emulsifier, so you could check the Evonik’s website with their example formulations, so it could be a good starting point.Thank you. That was very helpful. I will definitely check out the link that you sent.
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Allantoin at less than 0.5% concentrations typically doesn’t recrystallize if you dissolved it at 50 C/122 F (or above)
Oops… I forgot to put an asterisk there… and I forgot to upload a specific document to give you a better context. *facepalm* I was in a hurry, so silly me.
@abierose you should find this document I attached on allantoin’s solubility and chemical stability useful.Apologies for any confusion!But basically, the hotter the water (or another solvent), the better it will dissolve…but recrystallization will be an issue if you have 1) higher concentrations of allantoin, 2) don’t have the proper rheology modifiers and emulsifiers and 3) you add them at the wrong time.Also, if you use water as the primary solvent, and if you have significant amounts of allantoin… be prepared to give up % of other ingredients in the formula. -
RedCoast said:
Allantoin at less than 0.5% concentrations typically doesn’t recrystallize if you dissolved it at 50 C/122 F (or above)
Oops… I forgot to put an asterisk there… and I forgot to upload a specific document to give you a better context. *facepalm* I was in a hurry, so silly me.
@abierose you should find this document I attached on allantoin’s solubility and chemical stability useful.Apologies for any confusion!But basically, the hotter the water (or another solvent), the better it will dissolve…but recrystallization will be an issue if you have 1) higher concentrations of allantoin, 2) don’t have the proper rheology modifiers and emulsifiers and 3) you add them at the wrong time.Oh awesome!! Thank you so much!! I really appreciate you taking the time to help me with this…means a lot 😊
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Wow, what a great document on Allantoin @RedCoast! Very informative and useful! Thanks again 🙂
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I would reduce N350 to 1%…it is efficient at 10% of the total emulsifiers you have, at 3% that you use it, it creates an obstacle on spreading…also, reduce the polyquaternium level to 1.5%…at 2% it will dry out the skin and does not give a very good skin feel….pair it with same amount of cetearyl alcohol as well….glycerine level is good…optimal I would say
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The reason your formula does not feel moisturising enough is because you use too much of polyquaternium on the one side and on the other side you do not have enough emulsifier with a good load of oils. Polyquaternium causes a rapid absorption of the oil phase from the skin and creates some sort of film on the skin, you want the skin to feel nurished and hydrated and so you need more oils for that. I have been working a long time on a formula like this using as main emulsifier Emulium Delta paired to either cetyl alcohol/cetearyl alcohol/behenyl alcohol…of the three cetearyl alcohol 30/70 feels best, cetyl alcohol reduces slip while behenyl alcohol feels right after 1 hour of application…but contributes to a more dry skin feel. Your lotion is cationic, the charge provided by the polyquaternium and such you have to use a strong emulsifier at adequate levels paired to cetearyl alcohol and a maximum 1.5% of polyquaternium. From my experience a total of 30-35% of oily phase is needed to have a stable emulsion with excellent moisturising properties… I calculate the polyquaternium on the oily phase as well even though it creates gel with the water, it dissolves on the oily phase too…
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Thanks @Dreamer77! I did not know that about the N350 or the Polyquaternium, so, thank you for that info!
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@Dreamer77 I’ve been looking at the emulsifier you mentioned (Emuliam Delta) and am definitely intrigued…do you purchase yours directly from the company who makes it (https://www.gattefosse.com/) or is there another repacker or reseller that you get yours through? I’m looking at some of their other products…they have some pretty cool stuff!
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@abierose
if you can’t find Emulium Delta, perhaps you can try Lipomulse Luxe. You can compared the sensory profile, which they have done so on the product brochure with Emulium Delta. It’s available on Trulux.https://azeliscanada.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Lipomulse-Luxe-Brochure-1.pdf
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jemolian said:@abierose
if you can’t find Emulium Delta, perhaps you can try Lipomulse Luxe. You can compared the sensory profile, which they have done so on the product brochure with Emulium Delta. It’s available on Trulux.https://azeliscanada.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Lipomulse-Luxe-Brochure-1.pdf
Thank you so much @jemolian!
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abierose said:@Dreamer77 I’ve been looking at the emulsifier you mentioned (Emuliam Delta) and am definitely intrigued…do you purchase yours directly from the company who makes it (https://www.gattefosse.com/) or is there another repacker or reseller that you get yours through? I’m looking at some of their other products…they have some pretty cool stuff!
I buy it directly from their representative on the MOQ which is 20KG if I am not mistaken. However, this product and the rest that you see that Gattefosse is producing you cannot find them easily at small retail shops that sell small quantities. Your best bet would be to use maybe another PEG emulsifier that’s easier to get. There are other good emulsifiers and maybe stronger ones (emulium delta is peg75 stearate) with like peg100 stearate etc. The company , Gattefosse ia among the premium companies that do their own research development and production of their products and various actives that are very good. However, if you cannot find easy peg emulsifier for your moisturiser do not panic, all you need is a good non-ionic emulsifier (strictly non ionic) and 1-2 good non-ionic thickeners to pair with it and with the polyquaternium…also you need a non ionic or cationic type of cellulose/gum so as to have a much better aspect of the cream that you will create with the polyquaternium….and remember, you need a heavy oil phase to pair to the polyquaternium as it will make the skin absorb the oils like a sponge absorbs liquids….and if the oil phase is too small the skin will initially feel rightly tight but during the hours after application will feel wrong and dehydrated and will give a paper dry sensation…been there already and know exactly what I am typing….
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@Dreamer77 thank you for all of that information! I really appreciate it
so, I can use a non ionic OR a cationic cellulose or gum..? Just out of curiosity, do you have any suggestions or do you prefer a certain non ionic emulsifier that is similar to the one Gattefosse produces..? Do you make/sell skincare products? What are some of your preferred emulsifiers and emolients..? Thanks!!! -
@Dreamer77 thanks for interesting information.
Does PQ10 and guar hydroxypropyltrimonium chloride also speed up the absorption of oil?If yes at what percentage?
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I do not know on what percentage they will speed up the absorption of oil, however keep in mind that this depends on the cationic charge, so the more you have the more oil the skin will absorb.
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abierose said:@Dreamer77 thank you for all of that information! I really appreciate it so, I can use a non ionic OR a cationic cellulose or gum..? Just out of curiosity, do you have any suggestions or do you prefer a certain non ionic emulsifier that is similar to the one Gattefosse produces..? Do you make/sell skincare products? What are some of your preferred emulsifiers and emolients..? Thanks!!!
I have used Olivem, Emulium Delta, Emulpharma Coreosome and an couple others that slip my mind at the moment. I started makig skincare products on demand but as my clientele grew I have decided to proceed into developing formulas for more people. Emulium Delta is very versatile, I also use Olivoil Avenate and all known thickeners and gelling agents. Among my prefered companies is Lucas Meyer, from them I use Heliogel Lecigel and Heliofeel (but these are anionic emulsifiers and gelling agents)… Generally speaking I use only premium products for my formulations.
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Olivoil Avenate is amphifilic emulsifier and does not combine with cationics…just saying
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