Loosing viscosity after sometimes

drjaysee

Member

June 22, 2022 at 12:44 pm

Abdullah said:

drjayseesunish said:

Abdullah said:

saeedulfat said:

Abdullah yes the first time viscosity is ok . When made in cold season and get to hot season this time the shampoo lose viscosity.and what about the carbomer for viscosity control ?

You can use whatever you want but i am more on the side of budget friendly ingredients and there are a lot of good and budget friendly options like guar gum, xanthan gum, HPMC and more that you can choose. As you have no problem with NACL the best option is NACL.

Best way is to purchase some liquid SLES or make a 25% solution from paste with high shear, then makes a sample with that, then add NACL in small amounts and see with how much NACL you get desired viscosity without shifting to other side of salt curve.

@Abdullah so how much of salt for desired viscosity can measured by experiment and experiment only? Am I right ?

I mean do like this
Make the shampoo, it will be water thin

Add 0.2% NACL, mix and see the viscosity

Then add 0.2% more, mix and see the viscosity.

Do like this until you reach the viscosity you want.

Then note that.

@Abdullah thanks a lot.

Annyeap

Member

July 7, 2022 at 4:39 am

ketchito said:

@saeedulfat Usually CAPB and NaCl are added as the last ingredients, to reach the final viscosity (unless you have a cationic polymer, in which case, you could use some CAPB before your cationic polymer, to avoid direct interaction with your anionic surfactant). Also, why do you wait 24 hours to add CAPB?

@ketchito, can I just check with you, in a 16% SLES (70%)/5% CAPB (35%)/3.6% Lauryl Glucoside formulation which I then thicken with 3% salt, is it possible to increase the CAPB % to increase its viscosity? Would it accept the stability? I add the CAPB at the beginning, is it better to add CAPB at the end?

Annyeap

Member

July 7, 2022 at 4:47 am

ketchito said:@ketchito you said salt curve so if salt amount, goes beyond the peak of viscosity and then viscosity fall down so how to regain the viscosity? Is there any ingredient to regain the viscosity or throw whatever made. Another thing how to measure that particular amount of salt that goes to maximum viscosity. Sometimes we continuously adding salt to get more and more viscosity and the result , whatever viscosity was there, we lost that too????

Sometimes you have more than one peak in your salt curve, so you could keep adding salt. Alternatively, you could add water to dilute the effect of salt. Or add some rheology modifier.

@ketchito is there any way to know how many peaks there is in a salt curve besides testing?

drjaysee

Member

July 7, 2022 at 4:52 am

drjayseesunish said:

ketchito said:

@saeedulfat The problem, as @Paprik mentioned, is that you might be oversalting your product. Ionic surfactants have a salt curve, which means, they increase in viscosity as you add salt, reaching a maximum, and then falling down. Some systems have more than one peak. I’d make a salt curve of your systems to know if you’re oversalting it or not.

@ketchito you said salt curve so if salt amount, goes beyond the peak of viscosity and then viscosity fall down so how to regain the viscosity? Is there any ingredient to regain the viscosity or throw whatever made. Another thing how to measure that particular amount of salt that goes to maximum viscosity. Sometimes we continuously adding salt to get more and more viscosity and the result , whatever viscosity was there, we lost that too????

@ketchito adding less or excess of salt alter the viscosity. This salt depand viscosity depand on salt curve but if we want to get viscosity with other polymers then, is there same danger? Any curve related issues? Or less and excess do not alter viscosity a lot.
If not any issues then which polymers best for liquid detergents or wash products?

ketchito

Member

July 7, 2022 at 12:14 pm

Annyeap said:

ketchito said:@ketchito you said salt curve so if salt amount, goes beyond the peak of viscosity and then viscosity fall down so how to regain the viscosity? Is there any ingredient to regain the viscosity or throw whatever made. Another thing how to measure that particular amount of salt that goes to maximum viscosity. Sometimes we continuously adding salt to get more and more viscosity and the result , whatever viscosity was there, we lost that too????

Sometimes you have more than one peak in your salt curve, so you could keep adding salt. Alternatively, you could add water to dilute the effect of salt. Or add some rheology modifier.

@ketchito is there any way to know how many peaks there is in a salt curve besides testing?

The only way is to test. Start with adding a little amount of salt, and then keep on adding it bit by bit, measuring viscosity befor anny new addition.

ketchito

Member

July 7, 2022 at 12:15 pm

Annyeap said:

ketchito said:

@saeedulfat Usually CAPB and NaCl are added as the last ingredients, to reach the final viscosity (unless you have a cationic polymer, in which case, you could use some CAPB before your cationic polymer, to avoid direct interaction with your anionic surfactant). Also, why do you wait 24 hours to add CAPB?

@ketchito, can I just check with you, in a 16% SLES (70%)/5% CAPB (35%)/3.6% Lauryl Glucoside formulation which I then thicken with 3% salt, is it possible to increase the CAPB % to increase its viscosity? Would it accept the stability? I add the CAPB at the beginning, is it better to add CAPB at the end?

You really need to test it, since every system is different. If you are going to modify the level of CAPB, add it almost at the end, before NaCl.

ketchito

Member

July 7, 2022 at 12:18 pm

drjayseesunish said:

drjayseesunish said:

ketchito said:

@saeedulfat The problem, as @Paprik mentioned, is that you might be oversalting your product. Ionic surfactants have a salt curve, which means, they increase in viscosity as you add salt, reaching a maximum, and then falling down. Some systems have more than one peak. I’d make a salt curve of your systems to know if you’re oversalting it or not.

@ketchito you said salt curve so if salt amount, goes beyond the peak of viscosity and then viscosity fall down so how to regain the viscosity? Is there any ingredient to regain the viscosity or throw whatever made. Another thing how to measure that particular amount of salt that goes to maximum viscosity. Sometimes we continuously adding salt to get more and more viscosity and the result , whatever viscosity was there, we lost that too????

@ketchito adding less or excess of salt alter the viscosity. This salt depand viscosity depand on salt curve but if we want to get viscosity with other polymers then, is there same danger? Any curve related issues? Or less and excess do not alter viscosity a lot.
If not any issues then which polymers best for liquid detergents or wash products?

There are many polymeric rheology modifiers for surfactant based products. Particularly, for liquid detergents you want them not to be too costly. I used Acusol 820 in the past, but at the end, I prefer NaCl.

Abdullah

Member

July 7, 2022 at 3:00 pm

ketchito said:

Annyeap said:

ketchito said:

@saeedulfat Usually CAPB and NaCl are added as the last ingredients, to reach the final viscosity (unless you have a cationic polymer, in which case, you could use some CAPB before your cationic polymer, to avoid direct interaction with your anionic surfactant). Also, why do you wait 24 hours to add CAPB?

@ketchito, can I just check with you, in a 16% SLES (70%)/5% CAPB (35%)/3.6% Lauryl Glucoside formulation which I then thicken with 3% salt, is it possible to increase the CAPB % to increase its viscosity? Would it accept the stability? I add the CAPB at the beginning, is it better to add CAPB at the end?

You really need to test it, since every system is different. If you are going to modify the level of CAPB, add it almost at the end, before NaCl.

Yes you can only know when you test it but if my memory work enough, you will need less than 3% NACL for this formula.