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How do companies make products that are not as good as some hobbyists?
I’m researching shampoo bars, one from a nameless company makes a super sensitive shampoo bar with ingredients that are questionable, including betaine. But they use coco butter which isn’t great for hair compared to other butters, I suspect its to keep the bar hard. Are these formulated by a cosmetic chemist? If so, am I missing something?
https://incidecoder.com/products/ethique-bar-minimum
incidecoder.com
Ethique Bar Minimum ingredients (Explained)
Ethique Bar Minimum ingredients explained: Sodium Cocoyl Isethionate, Sodium Cocoyl Glycinate, Stearic Acid, Cocoyl Methyl Glucamide, Theobroma Cacao (Cocoa) Seed Butter, Orbignya Oleifera (Babassu) Seed Oil, Betaine, Brassica Alcohol, Glycerin, Guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride, Mica, Sodium Chloride, Titanium Dioxide, Tin Oxide, … Continue reading
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15 Replies
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Hi! Just a question, why do you mention that betaine (I assume CAPB) is questionable? Also, when you mention “companies” compared to hobbysts, which type of companies do you refer to? Big brands for sure have the highest safety standards for their products (they have the budget to pay for the many efficacy and safety tests that small companies -not to say hobbists- can’t afford).
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I cannot help but laugh every time I see ingredient “judgement” from self-proclaimed Information Agencies like indie decoder. Yeesh, when will this chicanery ever end? Rant over. This looks like an intelligent formula to me, basically a classic syndet soap bar with some cocoa butter used as a refatting agent (not a bulking agent) and mica thrown in. I would not use this on my hair however, that is just plain idiocy. The stearic acid bulking agent is classic modelling though it would be even better to see sodium hydroxide there along with it. @ketchito I am pretty sure they mean simple betaine (trimethylammonium acetate) which offers no detergency but some type of scalp-care benefit perhaps. All said I doubt many “hobbyists” could do any better.
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Betaine aggravates eczema so using it in a super sensitive recipe is strange, even in small amounts. Cocoa butter is one of the harder butters and not as great for hair as 10 other butters i can think of. Steric acid can be super draggy on many hair types. I know a lot of companies use it in small amounts successfully but I can’t help but think overall, they could have made a better bar considering their substantial resources and likely the best scientists in the business.
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You seem to have a limited understanding of ingredients. I suspect you are thinking that Coco betaine and betaine are the same thing. Nothing could be more different. Betaine is a natural osmolyte humectant, that is just a magical (and edible) ingredient in skincare. I actually include 1 tsp of it in my morning coffee each day, as well as 2-3% in about every formula I make.
I work with a beginner group, and they often assume if spelling is similar, or if part of the word overlaps…. they must be the same. Nope….not even close.
The betaine in that listing also goes by the name of betaine, betaine anhydrous, or TMG betaine (Trimethylglycine). On an inci….is simply lists as betaine. Coco betaine can NOT be listed that way, correctly.
Millions of Americans eat betaine, each and every day. Try some! Betaine Anhydrous Trimethylglycine (TMG) | TMG Supplement
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This reply was modified 1 month ago by Graillotion.
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This reply was modified 1 month ago by Graillotion.
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This reply was modified 1 month ago by
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Thats great information thank you!
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where is your beginner group?
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You are also forgetting that making a good enough (but not great) product with excellent marketing is generally what is needed to succeed in the cosmetic industry. Marketing plays a very big part of selling cosmetics.
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It is. A lot of the professionals here have said that these companies employ the best of the best but I’ve found that some of my homemade products work so much better, I couldn’t mass market it without hiring a scientist…its just not in the budget. With illness and housing issues I have to learn through experimenting and getting tips here.
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This brand started very small (selling at markets), and has evolved over time. I have tried them and the shampoo formulations are pretty good, some of the other products I didn’t love. I imagine the formulas have changed recently with the buy out from a larger company - along with cutting a lot of product lines, new packaging etc.
Keep in mind they also have a lot of (somewhat self imposed) restrictions about what ingredients are acceptable or not. e.g. no palm derived ingredients is hugely restrictive.
As the commenter above me also said, having a product that’s pretty good and great marketing does the job for most brands. If people love the idea of the brand their perception will also be more positive. Most consumers will not perceive a marginal improvement in performance and ultra-perfectionism about formulas is probably not going to be rewarded with booming business. 😅 It’s the marketing!
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As a beginner formulator I am constantly surprised by how my formula’s out perform the best sellers. I could never market my product to bigger sales platforms because of obvious reasons (needs a better preservative system and some technical things I’m still learning) and being ugly, but the profit motive is huge.
Also I know that a lot of large corporations have posed as etsy customers buying my items. Things that I have used for a decade or longer have been duped. Its like how small jewelry sellers are duped by huge brands like Urban Outfitters. It sucks but mine is still better lol.
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They didn’t start as a large corporation and I don’t believe her motive was profit only. She could have made formulas that are a lot cheaper. They were really one of the first brands to offer plastic free alternatives to liquid products and personally I admire her vision!
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Also random question, but how do you know its bad without trying it? A lot of cosmetic formulation is trial and error.
Also some surfactants alone (like SLS) might be irritating due to the small micelle size they form, however combining surfactants creates a larger micelle size that doesn’t irritate the skin as much. So you can’t necessarily determine whether a formula is good or bad based on individual ingredients.
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This reply was modified 2 weeks, 6 days ago by cosmeticchick.
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This reply was modified 2 weeks, 6 days ago by
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Not buying into the premise of hand made better - think that is very subjective and parochial consideration. The true “better” has to be in the mind of consumers.
However, understand there is a profound difference between what is effectively a hand made product and a product from mass, automated production.
The latter is going to be consistent, responsive to/constrained by extensive safety, quality and cost considerations and expanded in appeal by professional marketing.
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Its not always or usually better, but when it is it is surprising. For example a gentle cleanser I use from Pacifica, the top ingredient is a known irritant for eczema and its marketed as a sensitive skin cleanser. Some of the $50 hair masks don’t perform half as well as mine does and without silicones that mask how it is not performing over time. I get why chemists say these brands have the best and brightest scientists that ever walked earth but they are constrained by their boss who is not a chemist or even motivated by long term performance. The ingredients I use aren’t expensive and even then the profit motive of companies are so blinding they are focusing on claims based labeling which over time is cheaper than using the cheap ingredients that I use. That’s why Amazon entered the handmade market, they knew people wanted quality were willing to buy handcrafted products. Although the handmade markets now are no longer handmade.
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<div>Can you name that top ingredient or complete ingredient list of Pacifica?</div>
Also Hand made means the producer can’t afford the machine.
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