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Help! Problem with Ceteareth 25
Hi Everyone
I have a problem with a formulation about Hair water based pomade and I would like you to help me solve it
The problem is that when i heat the mixture in water with the ceteareth 25, the Ceteareth 25 isn’t dissolved completally but instead becomes a translucent mass floating on water
The presentation of the ceteareth is in pellets like NaOH, not powder and the msds says that the ceteareth is completely soluble in water
Maybe if i pulverize the ceteareth in a mortar and I add it to the hot mix, Would completely solubilize? or if i increased the amountthe water amount the ceteareth works better ? (water 60% aprox, C-25 21% aprox in formulation)
heating temperature = 60°C
Thanks
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51 Replies
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Couple of issues:
(1) C-25 … 21% … is that correct or did you mean 2.1%? If 21% is correct, then that’s the major part of your problem … you only need about 2% C-25
(2) Temp = 60C … trying upping your temperature to 70C to 75C.
But, if you are using 21% C-25, that’s your problem.
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Yes, the c-25 is 21% in the mix
Thanks @MarkBroussard , I will try itThe goal is producing something like this:
https://www.maggardrazors.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Hey-Joe-Strong-genuine-hair-pomade-100ml-2.jpg -
Search this forum with Ceteareth-25 and you will get all the information. I remember a long discussion on this and few including me have posted almost complete formulation. The product you posted the picture of is what I developed too. And it has indeed more than 25% Ceteareth-25.
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It would help if you posted the full LOI of the benchmark formula.
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@MarkBroussard @Chemist77 Here is the formulation
Ingredient %
Water 59,1Propylene Glycol 2,7Benzil Alcohol 0,5Polysorbate 20 2,0PEG 7 Glyceryl Cocoate 1,7Vegetable Glycerin 1,4PEG 40 castor oil 0,8Polysorbate 80 1,3Fragance 1Pvp k30 3,5Ceteareth 25 25,0Silicone oil 1,0Today i increased the heating temperature to 75°C in a Home water bath ( I don’t have a lab water bath) and the ceteareth remains undissolved completely
I tried mix with a mechanical mixer, the ceteareth dissolves completely but too much foam is formed, and the silicone oil does not function as an antifoam agent
The ceteareth stayed like:
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I have not ever worked on a formula like this, so I can’t offer any more advice. Is this a formula you developed on your own, or are you trying to replicate a formula you found fully-developed from a formulary?
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@MarkBroussard @Chemist77
i trying to replicate a formula i have fully developed from a formulary. The goal is producing something like this:
https://www.maggardrazors.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/Hey-Joe-Strong-genuine-hair-pomade-100ml-2.jpgBut the problem is that the ceteareth isn’t dissolved completely in water and if i mix with a mechanical mixer, a lot of foam is formed but the ceteareth is totally dissolved
So i think that maybe if i use an anti-foam agent could work but I don’t know what agent could use in this case so that it does not involve any risk in its application
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Add upto 10-15% glycerine and propylene glycol combined to the batch and then process everything at not less than 85C.
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Hey @Chemist77 @MarkBroussard Thanks for the advice, these were very useful.
I have achieved the desired consistency in the final product. Apparently, the problem was the heating temperature, raise the temperature to about 85 ° C, and I have separated the mixture into two phases, which after being brought to that temperature I mixed them and worked wellBut, I have one last question:In my formulation, I have reduced the water level slightly, increased the C-25 and maintained the percentage of benzyl alcohol in the mixture (2%). Understanding that benzyl alcohol works as an antimicrobial agent and can also cause skin irritation, Don’t you think the percentage is high? Could it involve any risk to the skin?I thought of reducing this percentage to 1% (0.5% of Benzyl Alcohol and 0.5% of another preservative, Maybe, Phenoxyethanol) But I don’t know and I would like to know your opinions about itThanks so much! -
The concentration for benzyl alcohol used for topical formulation is up to 2%, but benzyl alcohol is active in pH below 8, if I’m not mistaken, and the optimum pH should be up to 5
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You might want to try Benzyl Alcohol + Dehydroacetic Acid … it’s a well-established, commercially available blend … use at 1% and you should be fine.
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I don’t recommend dehydroacetic acid because it is chemically quite active and is able to decompose salts (double replacement reaction). For example potassium glycrrhizate + dehydroacetic acid -> some kind of precipitate and unknown byproducts. Just 0.5% of dha ruined a 40% solution.
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And what salts do you see in this formula?
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Just for information: we have used 0.75 and 1% benzyl alcohol (passed USP 51) at Ph up to 10 in the presence of high levels of Ca CO3.
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I wasn’t talking about this formula specifically.
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I see … a general comment. So, Benzyl Alcohol + Dehydroacetic Acid would work just fine in this formula.
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@MarkBroussard i will try that combination , Thanks
But is the percentage of benzyl alcohol in the formulation okay? There is no risk?And talking about the preservation and stability of the product, this was what was obtained:
I take a sample of the container, exposed it to the air, to the interperie and now it looks like this:
Is this normal? Or is there any stability problem? -
Seems to have gone from translucent to opaque, so yes, there appears to be a stability issue. Opaque usually means formation of crystals.
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Agree if you look closely you can see crystals formed.Put it under the scope to be sure.
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@Belassi @DRBOB@VERDIENT.BIZ
Here is the new formulationIngredient %Water 47,1Propylene Glycol 2,0Benzil Alcohol 2,0Polysorbate 20 1,9PEG 7 Glyceryl Cocoate 6,0Vegetable Glycerin 4,0PEG 40 castor oil 0,7Polysorbate 80 1,0Fragance 0,5Pvp k30 3,0Ceteareth 25 30,0Silicone oil 1,0Any suggestions to avoid crystallization?I clarify that if the product remains in the open container does not happen, only happened when you take a sample there and leave it outdoors -
I would do a knockout based on the indoor/outdoor reaction.I don’t see anything obvious!
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- Forgot to mention BA is too high as all you need is 1percent.
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@DRBOB@VERDIENT.BIZ
Knockout experiment? sure!If anyone knows that could be causing the crystallization in the formulation, I would be very grateful if I discussed it and help me to get a solutionI clarify again, this only happens if I leave something of the sample to the interperie for approximately 24 hours -
I was thinking, and maybe what happened was a phenomenon of oxidation in the product and this is why its coloration became opaque?
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The silicone oil and PVP in there are going to cause turbidity, read my previous comment. The glycerin and PG content has to be between 10-15% minimum. Chuck out the cocoate also along with the silicone oil. Optmize PVP.
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