Home Cosmetic Science Talk Formulating hair conditioner

  • oldperry

    Member
    November 29, 2017 at 1:55 pm

    If you look at Google Trends, something happened that made interest in Argan Oil takeoff in 2010. 
    https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?date=all&q=argan%20oil

    This type of thing (using claims ingredients in products) has been done in the cosmetic industry for decades. It continues because that’s what people buy.

    Consumers don’t want to know that Petrolatum is making their skin feel good, they would rather believe it’s the Aloe Vera.

    Consumers don’t want to know that Dimethicone makes their hair shiny. They want to believe it’s the Argan oil.

    If consumers were better critical thinkers, they wouldn’t fall for these marketing shenanigans & marketers would stop doing it.

    Then formulators could spend more time finding ingredients that had an actual impact on product performance instead of hunting down a new ‘feature’ ingredients that provides a good story but no real benefit.

  • doreen

    Member
    November 30, 2017 at 11:18 am

    @Perry
    True. It seems like customers want to be deceived…
    Like La Mer for example, astronomical prices for products that are mediocre at best. Yet they are extremely popular here, even by teenagers. The customers that do use their common sense seem scarce…

  • sabahi

    Member
    December 2, 2017 at 5:57 am

    Perry that is some good insight, I was just speaking to someone today and how he mentioned tea tree oil products were released before all the hype and those lines failed until later when it got caught in consumers eyes down the line. There’s a time and place for everything. 

    We just made some fragrance hair mists. We couldn’t really claim anything cool until We added a drop of Argan oil into it. It’s just marketing and business. 

    Also I had no idea google had a trends I’ve been using anither tool for amazon to find trends but google is the master, very cool tool, thanks! 

  • sabahi

    Member
    December 2, 2017 at 6:25 am

    @Doreen81
    this is the first I have heard of la mer, I laughed at the pricing and I laughed even harder when I showed my friend and she said that both her sisters buy their products.

     Funny thing is I think we actually manufactured for them and if that’s the case I know for a fact what’s in those bottles is under $10. Crazy profit margins. I’ve actually been looking for a niche to enter, and this couldn’t have been brought to my attention at a better time! Thank you. 

  • antmagn

    Member
    December 2, 2017 at 9:39 am

    So you think its best to add panthenol in leave in conditioners? I have plenty of panthenol right now, how can I benefit of it? A leave in conditioner with btms and panthenol will do better than a rinse off conditioner with panthenol?

  • markbroussard

    Member
    December 2, 2017 at 5:44 pm

    Marketing Rule #1:  Feed the dogs the food they like to eat.

    The funny thing about cosmetic products it that often there is a consumer perception that more expensive is better … it makes people feel like they are treating themselves to something special.  You got to hand it to La Mer, Le Prairie and companies of similar ilk … Exorbitantly priced products, yet relatively inexpensive to manufacture, positioned as “It” products … not an easy task to succeed at. 

  • belassi

    Member
    December 2, 2017 at 6:15 pm

    ^^^ That. From personal experience I agree.

  • bill_toge

    Member
    December 2, 2017 at 7:09 pm

    a friend of mine at another company described an occasion when one of their customers (a very expensive department store in London) wanted their product to have a longer INCI list, and cost more, because that would make it more aspirational

    it was notable for being the only time a customer ever complained that their product was not expensive enough; a very old saying about fools and their money springs to mind

  • markbroussard

    Member
    December 2, 2017 at 10:16 pm

    Marketing Rule #2:  The main objective of marketing is to compel fools to part with their money by creating the illusions of “need” and “prestige”

  • sabahi

    Member
    December 3, 2017 at 2:12 am

    We need a marketing rule thread here if we don’t have one

  • belassi

    Member
    December 3, 2017 at 4:09 am

    Well yes I agree.

  • Dino

    Member
    December 3, 2017 at 5:53 pm

    @Perry 
      
    The marketing BASF say ” You must add the panthenol to make the film former (Polyquaternium-68 ) more flexible, less flaky and more pleasing to the touche.

    http://cosmeticsciencetechnology.com/articles/samples/881.pdf

  • Dino

    Member
    December 3, 2017 at 5:56 pm
    What did you think if i add (Dimethicone (and) Dimethiconol
    Cyclopentasiloxane) to my rinse -off  formula ?.
  • bill_toge

    Member
    December 3, 2017 at 8:52 pm

    @MarkBroussard true, but no sensible customer would seriously encourage the contract manufacturer to overcharge them and rip them off

  • heraklit

    Member
    December 3, 2017 at 9:59 pm

    “Fools” is a little heavy word. :|

  • markbroussard

    Member
    December 4, 2017 at 12:49 am

    Creme De La Mer   1.0 oz  $170.00 USD

    Algae (Seaweed) Extract, Mineral OilParaffinum LiquidumHuile Minerale, Petrolatum, Glycerin, Isohexadecane, Microcrystalline WaxCera MicrocristallinaCire Microcristalline, Lanolin Alcohol, Citrus Aurantifolia (Lime) Extract, Sesamum Indicum (Sesame) Seed Oil, Eucalyptus Globulus (Eucalyptus) Leaf Oil, Sesamum Indicum (Sesame) Seed Powder, Medicago Sativa (Alfalfa) Seed Powder, Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Seedcake, Prunus Amygdalus Dulcis (Sweet Almond) Seed Meal, Sodium Gluconate, Copper Gluconate, Calcium Gluconate, Magnesium Gluconate, Zinc Gluconate, Magnesium Sulfate, Paraffin, Tocopheryl Succinate, Niacin, WaterAquaEau, Beta-Carotene, Decyl Oleate, Aluminum Distearate, Octyldodecanol, Citric Acid, Cyanocobalamin, Magnesium Stearate, Panthenol, Limonene, Geraniol, Linalool, Hydroxycitronellal, Citronellol, Benzyl Salicylate, Citral, Sodium Benzoate, Alcohol Denat., Fragrance.

    Then what would you call someone who pays $170/ounce for this? … Astute?

  • em88

    Member
    December 4, 2017 at 8:05 am

    With all those extracts and salts they can almost speculate to cure cancer lol

    This thread is great! Thank you for your posts. 

  • oldperry

    Member
    December 4, 2017 at 1:48 pm

    @Dino - Interesting. 5% panthenol in a formula would be ridiculously expensive.  And perhaps you could get the same effect (or better) using a more simple humectant like Glycerin or Propylene Glycol. 

    I hope I didn’t come off as sounding dismissive like “panthenol doesn’t do anything”.  That isn’t what was meant. There are two points that were meant.

    First, panthenol in hair products probably wouldn’t do anything a consumer would notice. Lab tests often show things that consumers don’t notice.

    Second, although panthenol does work as a humectant there is nothing about it that makes it a superior formulating choice when considering effectiveness (as a humectant) and cost. There are less expensive ingredients that work better.

    @heraklit - I agree. I wouldn’t call consumers “fools”.  People who are duped into spending excessive amounts of money for cosmetics are better described as misinformed or victims of marketing. They deserve sympathy rather than scorn.

  • das

    Member
    December 4, 2017 at 6:36 pm

    @MarkBroussard that’s the Coca Cola style, and sadly it works. But in cosmetics I think it’s harder for the consumers to know if a product is worth the price or they are being ripped off.

    I think the logic for cosmetics is:
    better packaging and design> the company invests in a pretty thing that goes with the product quality.
    higher price > the product is better (meaning more “concentrated”, better or more components, or whatever logic that applies)

    It’s rare to see a consumer reading the INCI, simply because they don’t understand it. But let’s say they read it, what would they see?. A large label with many components. If they compare to a different product with a shorter INCI, it’s logical to think it’s better because it has more things, and that it’s worth to pay the price because is more complete. 

    I have to agree with Perry, the buyer is the victim of an unscrupulous company.

  • markbroussard

    Member
    December 4, 2017 at 7:23 pm

    @DAS:

    I don’t think there are any victims here per se … Kudos to companies that succeed in convincing someone to pay $170 per ounce for a product that costs $5.00, or less, per ounce to manufacture surrounded by pretty packaging that costs probably 2X to 3X the cost of the product itself.

    If anyone is a victim here, it’s consumers who victimize themselves by willingly paying outrageous prices not knowing if the product delivers value commensurate with its price.

    There is nothing unscrupulous about asking an exorbitant price and selling to buyers who willingly, of their own volition, pay that exorbitant asking price.

  • oldperry

    Member
    December 4, 2017 at 8:58 pm

    @MarkBroussard - I agree that these marketers aren’t unscrupulous just because they can get people to pay high prices for products. For the most part, cosmetic marketers do not lie. 

    You’re right, consumers are best described as victims of their own emotions, impulses and ignorance. Critical thinking skills are not encouraged in our society.

  • markbroussard

    Member
    December 4, 2017 at 10:18 pm

    @Perry:

    Agreed … One man’s Fool is another man’s Victim Of Their Own Emotions … LOL!  All in good fun.

    Yes, La Mer does not do anything unscrupulous in their marketing … and there is plenty of info out there for any consumer curious enough to do a little research before dropping $170 for an ounce of cream.

    I would gladly sell once of my creams for $170 an ounce if I could get consumers to pay that much.  More Is Better … it’s the American way!

  • Dino

    Member
    December 5, 2017 at 7:43 am

    @Perry  thank you so much for your answer

  • sabahi

    Member
    December 6, 2017 at 5:40 am

    Anyone interested in creating something similar to La Mer? But Better products, fraction of the price. Strictly ecommerce 

  • Spotlight

    Member
    December 7, 2017 at 1:04 am

    Thx Perry

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