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Formulation help: Best emulsifiers to pair up
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Graillotion said:elirit said::smiley: @ coffee recipes. I assumed my bubbles were from my cheap equipment. I wanted to try to get the formula down pat before investing in an homogenizer and a stirrer.Oh gosh, news I did not want to hear. I thought of buying a blender for now but read so much about aeration etc.
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The way you create shear….is have a fixed piece….and another piece that spins near it rapidly.
So the crudest form….is a stick blender with a bell housing. The Bell…is the fixed piece…and the blade can create some shear in relation to the bell…. Yours has no bell…or no small space to create the shear. It call only stir rapidly, and make froth. But suddenly…I have a desire for coffee?
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Look at this picture (what I use).
Not saying that is what you need…but a good start. With the attachment on the right…you can create gifts for friends that love you.
With the attachment on the left… You can sell products.
On the left…you see how close the tolerance is between the bell…and the blades….that is how you create shear / emulsion.
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Oh yes, I see how close the blade is to bells. My attachment is nothing compared to this. Do you do low shear with the one on the right?
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Also how do you feel about ethylhexyl palmitate and acne?
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That stick blender is one of the few….that is infinitely adjustable…so can run at 0 rpm, 100 rpm 1000 rpm or 10,000 rpm +… So it can both emulsify…and stir a bit at really low rpm. (I only do that with warm lotion…which is thin at the time.) Depending on which emulsifier you are using….they can be very sensitive to the equipment used during stirring… If you want total forgiveness…use the 165 emulsifier + thickners.
However…it can not stir for long amounts of time (will get too hot)….so not an adequate stirrer….plus anything like that is ineffective for stirring something thick like a cream.
You would laugh…if you saw my stirrer.
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elirit said:Also how do you feel about ethylhexyl palmitate and acne?
Those were just 3 examples of lite emollients. No thought given to comedogenic ratings.
I use it only in body/hand lotions now. It has not been included in my face creams.
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I am in no position to laugh at anybodys equipment. Thank you. -
For the formulations:#13.5% Mont 68 + 0.25 % eumulgin + 1% C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate + 0.2% gum3% glycerin + 7.5% oilRich cream, however soaping still excessive. It could be brand of xanthan gum or need to increase C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate- Remarks: It most likely is still the iusse with the emuslfier mix and gum, you won’t be able to run from the soapiness of the emsulfiers since your percentage of oils are too low, the gum will make it more obvious.#22.0% 165 + 0.25 % eumulgin + 1.1% cetyl esters + 0.2% gum3% glycerin + 7.5% oil24 hour pic. Can take up to 48 hours to thicken. Very thin viscosity so far.- Remarks: You should see it in about 24 hours time. I’dd recommend 2.5% or 3% 165 and drop the emulgin, then increase the Cetyl Esters to 3% or 4%.#33.0% Mont 202 + 3.0% cetyl alcohol + 0.5% aristoflexVery thin viscosity.- Remarks: There’s something going on there, if not aristoflex would produce a lotion at 0.5%. Check your pH.#43.0% Mont 202 + 0.25 % eumulgin + 1% C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate + 0.2% gum3% glycerin + 7.5% oilMedium viscosity, however soaping still excessive. It could be brand of xanthan gum or need to increase C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate. I like the texture of this one the most minus the soaping.- Remarks: Remarks same as #1’sA few comments to add on to what Graillotion has mentioned:C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate is mainly an emollient, so using it at that low percentage won’t really help as much as a direct silicone would, for example 2% Dimethicone.165 does very little thickening, so if that is your primary…you’ll need more Eumulgin…or Cetyl alcohol, or 202 as a ‘co’, or polymerics.
165 is mainly non-bodying, and 202 is only very slightly bodying.
Regarding “Create a cascading effect of emolliency”, it depends if you want to do that. This in itself is another part of the sensory and performance challenge. It can involve a selection of heavy, medium, light lipids with different textures. For the most simple example, Butters (Heavy), CCT / MCT (Medium), C12-15 Alkyl Benzoate (Medium/Light), HemiSqualane (Light).
https://itsallinmyhands.com/2013/03/05/formulating-a-lotion-choosing-the-fats-theory-pt-5/In terms of homogenizing wise, there’s no issues with using cheap tools since i make small batches with these:
I have various small mixers as the speed they provided are different. I’m homogenizing a watery formulation, i’d use the blue mini pain mixer, for thicker formulation, i’d use the Norpro with different attachments.Also how do you feel about ethylhexyl palmitate and acne?For ethylhexyl palmitate, the comedogenic rating is relatively high but it still varies from person to person so it really depends.
Depending on which emulsifier you are using….they can be very sensitive to the equipment used during stirring…Do take note of the process instructions of all the ingredients and heating requirements to ensure that the emulsifier(s) and heated ingredients are evenly melted for a smooth and stable emulsion.
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Goodnight or goodmorning Jemolian:)
Again, overwhelmed with gratitude for you and @Graillotion ‘s input today. Everyone in this forum gives advice without expectations. Anyway, enough mushy talk. Tomorrow morning, I am off to doing more trials with everyone’s advice and more reading including your link you sent me. Thank you. -
elirit said:Hello All,
thank you in advance for your help. My formula for a facial cream had 3 emulsifiers in it ( Emulgin SG 1%, Liposorb 1%, and Olivem 1000 6%). I found the Olivem 1000 to be too soapy after trial and error. And the Liposorb (sorbitan stearate) is really expensive. I have 0.4% xanthan gum and 3% glycerin. I now purchased 5 new emulsifiers to try:
Montanov 202 Arachidyl
Alcohol, Behenyl Alcohol, Arachidyl GlucosideMontanov 68 Cetearyl
Alcohol (and) Cetearyl GlucosidePolymulse Acrylates/C10-30
Alkyl Acrylate CrosspolymerNaturemuls Candelilla/Jojoba/Rice
Bran Polyglyceryl-3 Esters, Glyceryl Stearate, Cetearyl Alcohol, Sodium
Stearoyl LactylateEcomulse Glyceryl
Stearate (and) Cetearyl Alcohol (and) Sodium Stearoyl LactylateWhich emulsifiers (2-3) would you pair together in formula?
Thank you again 🙂
In my opinion, the texture and the sensorials of the emulsion, aren’t a function only on the emulsifier! They are related with the other ingredients as well as the processing methods. Soaping effect could be moderated if know how exactly. Olivem 1000 is one of my favourite emulsifiers, and if you put it in the water phase instead of the oil phase, you will get a completely different texture and no soaping. The anionic emulsifier isn’t just an add, it can fill the gaps in the interface film around the oil droplet more densely and thus will make the emulsion more stable.You should use a more popular emulsifiers. What will happen with your formula if Seppic stops to produce Montanov 202, just like they did with the Simulgreen 18-2? You will have to redesign your formula again and again.About the processing. I don’t think you need a homogenizer! You’d better look at the immersion blenders such as Bosch CleverMixx Baby. It has a baby attachment, so you can make a small volumes and the same time it has a great power and speed. But it’s applicable only at the homogenization phase - the first 2-3 minutes. Then you should switch to an impeller or kitchen mixer till the cool down. If you pass this moment you will never get a nice texture. The cool down mixing also makes the emulsion smooth and nice, and also removes the bubbles remained afrer the homogenizing. Good luck! -
@ggpetrov
What a coincidence that you commented. 20 minutes ago I was looking at a posts from you about issues with allantoin in April 2019.Wow, thank you for this information. I was just about to do some more trials and now I will add olivem 1000 to water phase to see how that works.
I was not aware montanov 202 was not very popular. Good point regarding discontinuation of product.
Another mistake I have been making is that I am not mixing long enough or doing any cool down mixing. The formula I paid for was very vague so I was just “guessing” how long to mix. Why is olivem 1000 one of your favourites?
Thank you for your suggestion for blenders.
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elirit said:Why is olivem 1000 one of your favourites?
Because it is proven and stable, easy to find, has a lot of alternatives and excellent skin compatibility. Also, you can make a lot of various textures with a various sensorials depending of the other ingredients. You could try also - Emulsan 2, and Glyceryl Stearate & PEG-100 Stearate. With the second one, I don’t have an experience yet, but it was highly recomended by Ngarayeva 001, so I purchased some to test it.
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@elirit to add on to what was mentioned, there are a lot of considerations for the choice of ingredients including the emulsifiers. We haven’t discussed this since you didn’t mention your product requirements such as your product concept, restrictions, etc.
Olivem 1000 is used by neutrogena in their popular hydro boost series so at not likely to be discontinued for no reason as long as large companies are using it. It can be paired with other co-emulsifiers for stability as it make sometimes be unstable by itself and cause soaping in some cases.
For the 165 type emulsifier, it’s low cost and is produced by many manufacturers and use by quite many companies so it’s not likely to be discontinued unless every manufacturer no longer produce it.
For 202, it would be good if you are looking for a light texture with mattifying properties.
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@ggpetrov Thank you. I will look them up!
@jemolian Good Afternoon/night
I just finished 3 trials. So far Im liking the 3% 202/3% cetyl alcohol/aristoflex. It is waaay to thick and I think its because of the 2% aristoflex. However, I can tell that I will like it once I decrease the aristoflex to 0.75or 1%. The reason I havent posted the formula is because I have slowly removed and replaced ingredients. Researching has caused to me to rethink the previous formula that was filled wit so many extracts, natural oils and peptides. I did type the ingredients (above) that I think I will want to remain. I had 1000 actives etc Thank you everyone!
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@elirit no worries about posting the rest of the ingredients or not because you can do it part by part, so if you found a base that you like based on your formulation requirements that would be the most important for the time being. You can observe to see if at 3% 202 it still causes any minor soaping with the percentage of oils you are using.
For the actives or hero ingredients, remember to calculate the cost and look at the claims.
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@jemolian Yes my plan is to try to pair a non ionic with an ionic emulsifier to increase stabilization. 🙂
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I don’t know what type of product you are aiming for so I am assuming a facial cream.
Are you making an lamellar structure type? I see 202 and 68.
Lamellar structure - you have to understand how its structure works and the way it is processed. It is doable but it need an understanding.
There is a quote from Pharma explains about it in another thread, I call it “pea soup explanation”.jemolian said:#33.0% Mont 202 + 3.0% cetyl alcohol + 0.5% aristoflexVery thin viscosity.- Remarks: There’s something going on there, if not aristoflex would produce a lotion at 0.5%. Check your pH.I think this is weird too, 3.0% cetyl alcohol + 0.5% aristoflex should at least give a lotiony texture.
Aside from 165 I’m with ggpetrov, Olivem 1000 is one of my favorite emulsifiers too.
Glyceryl stearate citrate + polymers is nice too, Rich and soft but not too light not too heavy.2% aristoflex - too much.
You can look up free formulations from Hallstar, Evonik, etc. and when you grasp the characteristic and the feeling of your emusifier(s) and emolliences you can tweak it to your liking.
Immersion blenders such as Bosch CleverMixx Baby or Dynamix, etc. is a good tool for non-professional if you have the budget I say go for it, I’m planning to get one too but haven’t decided which one so I only have overhead stirrer to play with.
For natural oils - many blog/internet recipes use at high % but not many brands use that high other than shea butter or cheap oils, but it is depend on your concept and claim(s) you are making too.
I test polymer(s) with water first to get the general idea how much I need it or how it might play out in the formula.
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Pattsi said:I don’t know what type of product you are aiming for so I am assuming a facial cream.
Are you making an lamellar structure type? I see 202 and 68.
Lamellar structure - you have to understand how its structure works and the way it is processed. It is doable but it need an understanding.
There is a quote from Pharma explains about it in another thread, I call it “pea soup explanation”.jemolian said:#33.0% Mont 202 + 3.0% cetyl alcohol + 0.5% aristoflexVery thin viscosity.- Remarks: There’s something going on there, if not aristoflex would produce a lotion at 0.5%. Check your pH.I think this is weird too, 3.0% cetyl alcohol + 0.5% aristoflex should at least give a lotiony texture.
Aside from 165 I’m with ggpetrov, Olivem 1000 is one of my favorite emulsifiers too.
Glyceryl stearate citrate + polymers is nice too, Rich and soft but not too light not too heavy.2% aristoflex - too much.
You can look up free formulations from Hallstar, Evonik, etc. and when you grasp the characteristic and the feeling of your emusifier(s) and emolliences you can tweak it to your liking.
Immersion blenders such as Bosch CleverMixx Baby or Dynamix, etc. is a good tool for non-professional if you have the budget I say go for it, I’m planning to get one too but haven’t decided which one so I only have overhead stirrer to play with.
For natural oils - many blog/internet recipes use at high % but not many brands use that high other than shea butter or cheap oils, but it is depend on your concept and claim(s) you are making too.
I test polymer(s) with water first to get the general idea how much I need it or how it might play out in the formula.
Morning Pattsi
You’re correct. It is for a facial cream. I was not heating up the 202 hot enough hence the thin viscosity. Making cosmetics takes about 3 weeks to receive product right now. I’m still waiting for gsc in mail. I am excited to try this with polymers. Ideally I would want cream suitable for oily skin as well. Ideally. I will look at Hallmark and evonik as I’ve never heard from them. I wanted to you squalane with slip and slide products. I guess my mindset has changed upon this journey after reading that a lot of ingredients are just for claims. Thank you very much for your input Pattsi!P.S. I will look up the term “lamellar”.
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You should set your goals of what type of skin exactly you are making your formula. Oily skin is quite abstract notion. The female oily skin is different from the male oily skin. So you need to test your products on some customers. Also I have tested Montanov 202 many times, and I’d say that it doesn’t have matting effect, also it doesn’t give lighter emulsions than the other emulsifiers automaticaly. I’d say for sure that it’s tricky and quite weak emulsifier. Very often emulsions made with it tends to separate after a week or two, or even a month!If you looking to make a light and fast absorbing emulsion, you should look at the oil phase first. Maybe in this case esters and silicones are more suitable than the vegetable oils. Even more! Olivem 1000 could be used in an oil free emulsions, so it could be the only emollient there. For the achieve of a matting effect, very suitable is the Emulprot - a milk protein based emulgator, also distarch phosphate etc. From my personal experience, light and non greasy emulsions could be made by glyceryl stearate citrate as a coemulsifier, GSC SE, and I guess that the glyceryl stearate / peg-100 stearate could be a good choise as well.
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ggpetrov said:You should set your goals of what type of skin exactly you are making your formula. Oily skin is quite abstract notion. The female oily skin is different from the male oily skin. So you need to test your products on some customers. Also I have tested Montanov 202 many times, and I’d say that it doesn’t have matting effect, also it doesn’t give lighter emulsions than the other emulsifiers automaticaly. I’d say for sure that it’s tricky and quite weak emulsifier. Very often emulsions made with it tends to separate after a week or two, or even a month!If you looking to make a light and fast absorbing emulsion, you should look at the oil phase first. Maybe in this case esters and silicones are more suitable than the vegetable oils. Even more! Olivem 1000 could be used in an oil free emulsions, so it could be the only emollient there. For the achieve of a matting effect, very suitable is the Emulprot - a milk protein based emulgator, also distarch phosphate etc. From my personal experience, light and non greasy emulsions could be made by glyceryl stearate citrate as a coemulsifier, GSC SE, and I guess that the glyceryl stearate / peg-100 stearate could be a good choise as well.
Thank you. This is for female oily skin. I hope this is not a dumb question, but is it possible to use olivem 1000, gsc SE and aristoflex? Trying to avoid xanthan gum. I will look up emulprot INCI as I do not recall seeing this. Thanks again.
Edit: Emulprot
INCI: Sodium Citrate, Hydrolyzed Milk Protein, Xanthan Gum, Cyamopsis Tetragonoloba (Guar) Gum, Magnesium Stearate
Does hydrolized milk affect clients with dairy allergy?Thank you.
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Just to add on from my experience:
For the lamellar structure, in reference to emulsifiers, it refers to the lamellar or liquid crystal structure that certain emulsifier combinations can achieve or produce. You can read more about some benefits of it when you see the Olivem 1000 & Montanov marketing brochure or product sheets.
Regarding the mattifying effects of Montanov 202, it provides a matte finish or application on the skin. As it’s not a sebum absorber like Polymethylsilsesquioxane or starches, so it doesn’t really mattify oily skin. For example, one of the reason i use Montanov 202 is that i use about 1.5% to 3% of Squalane for my body lotion, 202 provides a matte look so i don’t look as shiny compared to other emulsifiers.
Regarding stability wise, my gel creams created with Olivem 1000, Montanov 68, 202, L, etc, has been stable and has never spilt over time, it depends on your combination. I always use Aristoflex or Sepinov EMT 10 as my main emulsifier and the traditional emulsifiers are there to add stability by reducing the oil particle size. Maybe to point out that some oils or esters or lipids in particular are easier to emulsify compared to others leading to a more stable formulation. Some natural derived emulsifiers can be less stable compared to others, some of the Montanovs are mainly less stable compared to others, perhaps 68 & L by themselves in traditional emulsion products.
Maybe also to add that, normally i’d just use those test batches made with those traditional emulsifiers as cleansing lotion or cream since i don’t want to waste them if i don’t like the skin feel. That would include ones made with 165.
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Regarding the mattifying effects of Montanov 202, it provides a matte finish or application on the skin. As it’s not a sebum absorber like Polymethylsilsesquioxane or starches, so it doesn’t really mattify oily skin. For example, one of the reason i use Montanov 202 is that i use about 1.5% to 3% of Squalane for my body lotion, 202 provides a matte look so i don’t look as shiny compared to other emulsifiers.
Regarding stability wise, my gel creams created with Olivem 1000, Montanov 68, 202, L, etc, has been stable and has never spilt over time, it depends on your combination. I always use Aristoflex or Sepinov EMT 10 as my main emulsifier and the traditional emulsifiers are there to add stability by reducing the oil particle size.
I will second what J said. Working with the Montanov series simply requires working within the mfg’s parameters. Getting the temp right, suporting with anionic co-emulsifiers, and adding polymerics for texture and one more layer of stability. I have never had a Montanov cream break post production. If you cream splits soon after production, than you have not met the requirements that emulsifier needed, or you added an ingredient that was upsetting the system.
And matte appearance is dictated far more with your other components. I think what the mfg is saying is: It is certainly possible to create a matte finish with 202, as it is not shiny in and of itself.
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jemolian said:Just to add on from my experience:
For the lamellar structure, in reference to emulsifiers, it refers to the lamellar or liquid crystal structure that certain emulsifier combinations can achieve or produce. You can read more about some benefits of it when you see the Olivem 1000 & Montanov marketing brochure or product sheets.
Regarding the mattifying effects of Montanov 202, it provides a matte finish or application on the skin. As it’s not a sebum absorber like Polymethylsilsesquioxane or starches, so it doesn’t really mattify oily skin. For example, one of the reason i use Montanov 202 is that i use about 1.5% to 3% of Squalane for my body lotion, 202 provides a matte look so i don’t look as shiny compared to other emulsifiers.
Regarding stability wise, my gel creams created with Olivem 1000, Montanov 68, 202, L, etc, has been stable and has never spilt over time, it depends on your combination. I always use Aristoflex or Sepinov EMT 10 as my main emulsifier and the traditional emulsifiers are there to add stability by reducing the oil particle size. Maybe to point out that some oils or esters or lipids in particular are easier to emulsify compared to others leading to a more stable formulation. Some natural derived emulsifiers can be less stable compared to others, some of the Montanovs are mainly less stable compared to others, perhaps 68 & L by themselves in traditional emulsion products.
Maybe also to add that, normally i’d just use those test batches made with those traditional emulsifiers as cleansing lotion or cream since i don’t want to waste them if i don’t like the skin feel. That would include ones made with 165.
I agree re feel of 165, however I have not experimented with all esters, lipids to enhance feel. So far I love skin feel of 202, then 68. I have been using test batches as body lotion.
Thank you all for sharing past experience.
I do remember someone saying the montanovs may be a tricky for a beginner. So far my creams with 68/eumulgin SG/xanthan gum and glycerin with all ingredients AND olivem 1000/eumulgin, gum and glycerin with all ingredients have been stable. It is the soaping that is the issue. Now I elimated soaping by not using the gum but I have to change a lot of my ingredients due to costs and reducing claim ingredients and electrolytes.
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