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Face Lotion with Olivem 1000 - Help with soaping/micro-foaming
Hello everyone,
I am trying to make a face lotion with Olivem 1000 (2%), 9% oils (5% Squalane and 4% MCT), but it keeps soaping. We tried to reduce soaping by doing all these, and it definitely helped, but it still exists more than my liking:
Olivem 900 - 0.2% (If we increase it too much, the lotion becomes waxy)
Siligel - 0.5% (This also has lecithin, which has lower HLB)
Cetyl Palmitate - 0.8%
Cetyl Alcohol - 0.2% (to improve Slip)
Glycerine 3%
We cannot use Dimethicone as the lotion has to be natural and free of silicones. We do not have Glyceryl Stearate (or Glyceryl Stearate SE) available in my country. I have Glyceryl Stearate Citrate though.
Please help.
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18 Replies
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Yes…. OM1000 is the soaping king of the industry! 🤢
Have you tried putting the OM 1000 in the water phase? That usually helps quite a bit.
See what you can pull from this thread.
Good luck.
Thinking outside the box on soaping. - Chemists Corner
chemistscorner.com
Thinking outside the box on soaping. - Chemists Corner
First let me say, I have no issues with soaping, I use the Gold standard, the Silver standard, and the Bronze standard and the participation…
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You’re going to have to use Dimethicone … and it works like magic. I have been working with Olivem 1000 for several years now and have tried every iteration to reduce soaping that I can think of. The only thing that actually works is Dimethicone.
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Thank you so much for your advice. Yes we tried with Dimethicone and it works like magic. But we cannot use Dimethicone as our formulation needs to be free of silicones. We tried to use Isoamyl Laurate and Triheptanoin, and these helped to a large extent, but not fully.
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This reply was modified 4 months ago by AnaK.
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This reply was modified 4 months ago by
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I have a trick: keep a high temperature during the whole emulsion process (75-80°C)…then, keep that same temperature for 10-15 extra minutes, but lower the mixing speen at 100-200 rpm (this will help remove most of the foam).
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Since OliveM 1000 is so prone to soaping, the easiest fix is to pick a different emulsifier. You could also try lowering how much OliveM 1000 that you are using, since you only have 9% oils. Your formula may not require 2% emulsifier at all.
If you must use OliveM, start with 1.25% and see if that works.
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Thank you for your advice, I will try with lower Olivem 1000.
Which other emulsifiers you suggest that have good skin feel (non-waxy, no white rub) - we are looking for the Cosmos approved ones only. We tried with Montanov 202 but it also soaps too much. I am currently experimenting with Hydrogenated Lecithin (2% Hydrogenated Lecithin for 12.5% oils, but it failed the Centrifuge test - will continue with more trials). We have not tried Ritamulse yet.
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I do not let entities with agendas and a lack of science knowledge dictate how I formulate…
But when I did work with emulsifiers that fit agendas… Heliofeel aka: Glyceryl Stearate Citrate (and) Polyglyceryl-3 Stearate (and) Hydrogenated Lecithin was one of the better ones I come across.
That would lead into exploring options with Glyceryl Stearate Citrate…and several of the polyglycerols.
I use SSG a lot…but only ever in a supporting role to bring an anionic kiss to a non-ionic formula.
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Thank you so much for all your help. We make lotions with Heliofeel and also with Heliosoft, and both were decent textures - but these are more mattifying lotions, and the feel is not rich or moist during or after application. These look very different from the Lotions or creams in the market.
Texture of the lotion with Polyaquol 2W was the best, but it soaped a lot (even with 6% Isoamyl Laurate) and 0.5% Cetyl Alcohol (Total oil percent was 10.2%, and Polyaquol 2W was 2%, Cetyl Alcohol 0.5%). I added Polyaquol 2W in the oil phase. Please advice.
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I have no idea what you are asking.
I don’t think I have really ever considered the option of the emulsifier dictating the haptics (granted they do a bit). I always looked at them as more the scaffolding that you hang the ornaments on.
So, I have always built my textures with the slippery stuff. That being said… It sounds like I am absolutely the wrong guy for the job…. I like light and dry….end of story. As an example….if you said make your dry and lite cream more rich and something…. I’d probably reach for Isostearyl Isostearate and replace the Dicaprylyl carbonate…. that would immediately alter the personality quite a bit. Other things that add richness are things like cetyl esters/palmitate or my preferred Myristyl Myristate. Richness is all in what you do with the ornaments. You should be able to take a 165 type (what I call a blank sheet of paper…with no personality)… and create a Hyundai or a Porsche from it. Don’t forget some of your classical refatting agents….maybe something as simple as Glyceryl oleate, might start pushing your project in the direction you want.
For feeling more moist…. at least at the moment of application….nothing can match a fast break from a polymeric like Aristoflex AVC…. dropping its load of water, with the first stroke across the skin. Don’t know it that fits in agenda based formulating…and don’t care. Some other tricks…would be toss a couple percent of pentylene glycol in….wanna make water feel wetter….bingo. I also think that tools like Lauryl Laurate really help with that first 10 second impression.
Moisture after feel….is all about your humectants…. make sure you have used two or three…. hard to paint the Mona Lisa with only one color on your palette. Some humectants…like sodium lactate not only moisturize…but leave what is generally perceived as a nice after feel as well… I am NOT a guy that EVER does glycerin and done. That is just something you have to learn from trial and error.
Well good luck….as mentioned….not sure what you were after….so just rambled for a bit. There is a Q&A with the formulators in a few hours….jump on there…and ask your Q’s.
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This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by Graillotion.
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Should be noted….some of my comments are self-canceling…ie : Sodium lactate and Aristoflex AVC…would be non starters in the same formula.
Another nice humectant that also leaves a nice skin feel…is Hydrovance, a type of urea. Does need a little buffer built in.
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This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by Graillotion.
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This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by
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Speaking of a buffer…if the pH is low enough…you can just use some Triethyl citrate and it will do the job…. But why I jumped back on was…. some of the mfg propaganda has suggested that is aides in soaping. I have no idea if this is correct or not….cus I don’t have soaping issues as a lover of the silicone oils. But might be worth investigating. Memba…. TEC is an ESTER…and feels like a darn nice one. In and of itself it does not have a pH….so you can apply neat to your skin….even though it is an ester of citric acid. It is a special little gem in the tool box…. Just got two liters of it for the lab….last week.
PS: If I recall correctly…. Hydrovance will also break an AVC gel….so also a non-starter.
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This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by Graillotion.
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This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by
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This reply was modified 3 months, 1 week ago by
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I was mucking around in old forums…and maybe there is a nugget hidden in this old thread:
(Pharma always had good insights in the deep chemistry.)
The low down on soaping…the how’s and why’s (in lotion). - Chemists Corner
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This reply was modified 3 months, 4 weeks ago by Graillotion.
chemistscorner.com
The low down on soaping...the how's and why's (in lotion). - Chemists Corner
If there is one thing I am passionate about.... I hate lotions that soap.....(create a white residue on skin, and must be worked in with…
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This reply was modified 3 months, 4 weeks ago by
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I really enjoy using Heliosoft (Glyceryl Behenate, Behenyl Alcohol, and Lecithin). I’ve made over a hundred emulsions with it and have never experienced any soaping. It provides a wonderful skin feel—very soft and smooth. It’s similar to Heliofeel, which was mentioned earlier.
Another natural emulsifier I like is PolyAquol 2W (Glyceryl Stearate, Stearyl Alcohol, and Polyglyceryl-2 Stearate). I prefer adding it to the water phase to create a more ‘jiggly’ emulsion. It doesn’t cause any soaping.
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I love Heliosoft (Glyceryl Behenate (and) Behenyl Alcohol (and) Lecithin). I’ve made over hundred emulsions with it and I never encountered soaping. It has a great skin feel, very soft indeed. It’s the cousin of Heliofeel, which was suggested above.
The other natural emulsifier I really like is PolyAquol 2w (Glyceryl Stearate (and) Stearyl Alcohol (and) Polyglyceryl-2 Stearate). I like adding it to the water phase to create a more ‘jiggly’ emulsion. It does not soap.
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Hello,
a few tips I usually use to reduce foaming, when making emulsions with Olivem1000:
- put Olivem1000 in the water phase (as mentioned above)
- Incorporate/increase a low HLB emulsifier (~1-2%) (I usually choose glyceryl stearate, but yes, it also builds viscosity, so you have to take it under consideration)
- incorporate/ increase Cetyl Alcohol (~1-2%)
- reduce the amount of Olivem1000, maybe back it up with 0.5% Glyceryl Stearate Citrate or Cetearyl Glucoside
- play around with the oil phase or change the oil phase if neccessary - I may suggest Octyldodecanol or Cetearyl Isonanoate in small %, they can help reduce foaming without adding dimethicone (of course it depends on the formulation, every case is different).
All of the advices might change the viscosity of the product, so you have to play around.
Have a nice day 🙂
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You cannot reduce the soaping by using fatty alcohols, because they actually boost this effect. The advise to lower the emulsifier is inadequate too. Start with 2-3% Olivem 1000 in the water phase and add 2-3% Olivem 900 as co emulsifier and tickener, and that’s it. You don’t need Cetyl alcohol. Also I can’t imagine how the Olivem 900 will possibly give a waxy feeling. What about water thickener? Which one you are using?
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Thank you so much for all the lovely details, I will surely try many of these tricks.
I read in some forum that the lotion’s feel is largely determined by the emulsifier, hence the question. Thank you for the clarification.
To your point of Pentylene Glycol, I have a feeling that it we use this one, it improves the absorption, and therefore lowers the playtime, making the lotion dry or draggy. So I am using 3% Glycerine and 1-2% Propandiol. I can try Sodium Lactate 60% solution, as I dont have Sodium Lactate - But I fear that it may destabilize Heliosoft. I also have Pentaviderm, do you think this is good?
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In my opinion you can go with a glycerine as the only humectant. 5% is a good point, and it will not give a noticeable stickyness. Sodium lactate is good too, but you should consider to not using a synthetic polymers, since it can destroy them.
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