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Cyclomethicone in shampoo/conditioner bar - pointless?
Is there any point in adding cyclomethicone to unpackaged solid bar type products, considering the high volatility of the ingredient?
Does it all evaporate out while waiting to be used?
Would be a money saver to know this :smiley:
Thanks
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7 Replies
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@JohnS Rather than the evaporation, I’d worry more on the fact that being a small silicone, it can be rinse out very easily, without having time to perform. Use a larger molecule, like a dimethicone (or even a PEG-12 dimethicone, if there’s a big impact on foam).
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ketchito said:@JohnS Rather than the evaporation, I’d worry more on the fact that being a small silicone, it can be rinse out very easily, without having time to perform. Use a larger molecule, like a dimethicone (or even a PEG-12 dimethicone, if there’s a big impact on foam).
Thanks for the reply.
I should’ve told the whole story - a formula I follow suggests using Dimethicone at 2% and cyclomethicone at 2%. The volatility of cyclo made me question including it at all; the rationale being that I end up with just the Dimethicone in the final product.
On a side note; the 2-5 minutes a conditioner is on the hair isn’t enough for cyclomethicone to work?
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Cyclomethicone is added more for its in-use effect than for its after-use hair feel. I personally don’t think cyclomethicone makes sense for a rinse out product.
As far as evaporating goes, the speed of it depends on the system but if the cyclomethicone is tied up within the bar, I don’t think it will just evaporate off too quickly. It evaporates more slowly than water.
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JohnS said:ketchito said:@JohnS Rather than the evaporation, I’d worry more on the fact that being a small silicone, it can be rinse out very easily, without having time to perform. Use a larger molecule, like a dimethicone (or even a PEG-12 dimethicone, if there’s a big impact on foam).
Thanks for the reply.
I should’ve told the whole story - a formula I follow suggests using Dimethicone at 2% and cyclomethicone at 2%. The volatility of cyclo made me question including it at all; the rationale being that I end up with just the Dimethicone in the final product.
On a side note; the 2-5 minutes a conditioner is on the hair isn’t enough for cyclomethicone to work?
@JohnS For some reason I thought it was a cleansing bar, my apologies. If you are formulating a conditioning bar, as @Perry mentioned, the effect of cyclomethicone will be perceived basically during the aplication process (wet stage). When the hair is dry, you’d feel more the effect of dimethicone. I’d try one formula with and another without cyclomethicone, both to see if the effect is perceived, and to adjust the dose.
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A solid bar with 2% Dimethicone? I do not think that is enough to be effective. I can offer some perspective as I have tried to formulate dimethicone into a solid conditioner bar and it made it highly unstable, weak and soft. I don’t remember the input I used but it was double digits 10% or so (Includes a high percentage of BTMS and cetyl alcohol )
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@Perry Thanks for the insight of the purpose of the ingredient, I incorrectly assumed a bit different. And great info about the volatility - up until now I thought, as some sources told me (without evidence), that it evaporates faster than ethanol. In which case you can see why I thought it would be pointless in a bar. :#
@ketchito Apologies for the confusion, the title can indeed suggest that, my bad. I shall indeed do some perception testing.
@Cafe33 Many thanks for this comment.
This was my other, perhaps ‘more important’ question, for which I was going to create another discussion/topic. You’ve struck it head on. I’ll post it here, but if anyone thinks its a good idea to create a separate discussion I can do it:
Formulas from swift crafty monkey suggest 2% cyclomethicone and 2% dimethicone for both LIQUID and SOLID conditioners. (my only source of learning so far)
The problem is:
1. with LIQUID, a person may use about 10 - 15grams of product (at 4% this means 0.6g total silicones applied). Probably enough for achieving the desired effects, yes?
2. With SOLID, the amount of product used is about 1 to 1.5grams. At 4%, that would mean 0.06grams total silicones applied. Probably no effect at that level. Or am I mistaken?
To achieve the LIQUID level of application/deposition with the solid, the SOLID formula would need to be 20% cyclo and 20% dime.
Long story short: What is the minimum % of cyclo and dime respectively, that is usually used to achieve an effect? 0.5%? 1%? 0.2%? Is a co-ingredient required at that level (I’ve read that polyquat 10 and cationic guar aid with deposition)?
Is it feasible to achieve the percentages from the above question, for any real effect in solid bar formulas? Without destabilizing or otherwise making them a bad product?
Many thanks,
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Perry explained it so beautifully in an older thread, have a look here
https://www.chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/7984/chemically-treated-hair-leave-on-hair-conditioner
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