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Correlation between Polyglycerol Esters and ceramide penetration.
A cursory glance around the world wide web…and I seem to be detecting an enhanced penetration of ceramides, if a polyglycerol ester is included in the emulsion.
Any thoughts on this?
Any good links to read?
Aloha and Thank You.
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10 Replies
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I saw another study that claimed lecithin also enhanced the penetration of ceramides. Can I just kill all the birds with one stone…and use Heliofeel?
INCIGlyceryl Stearate Citrate (and) Polyglyceryl-3 Stearate (and) Hydrogenated Lecithin
BTW: I used Heliofeel the first time, and it did not hold the formula together, so went back to a 165 based system and it did fine. However I could use Heliofeel as a co emulsifier for the 165 system.
Due to the end goal of this formula…I also use glyceryl oleate as well.
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My thoughts…
If we assume that these esters do enhance penetration, so what?
What will you be able to measure to demonstrate that enhancing penetration lead to some additional benefit?
For that matter, what do you measure to demonstrate that ceramides themselves actually provide a substantial benefit beyond what a moisturizer can do?
I feel like people are being mislead and buying into marketing hype of ingredients without stepping back and asking the basic question, does it really do anything noticeable?
That’s perfectly fine for consumers who want to buy products that provide hope in a bottle. But from a scientific standpoint these are the kinds of things I would want to know.
Because if the answer is “we don’t see any noticeable difference” you’re spending a lot of time trying to optimize something that doesn’t need to be optimized.
This is why raw material suppliers love me lol
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Perry said:My thoughts…
If we assume that these esters do enhance penetration, so what?
What will you be able to measure to demonstrate that enhancing penetration lead to some additional benefit?
For that matter, what do you measure to demonstrate that ceramides themselves actually provide a substantial benefit beyond what a moisturizer can do?
I feel like people are being mislead and buying into marketing hype of ingredients without stepping back and asking the basic question, does it really do anything noticeable?
That’s perfectly fine for consumers who want to buy products that provide hope in a bottle. But from a scientific standpoint these are the kinds of things I would want to know.
Because if the answer is “we don’t see any noticeable difference” you’re spending a lot of time trying to optimize something that doesn’t need to be optimized.
This is why raw material suppliers love me lol
I appreciate your thoughts and perspective. If my goals were to maximize profits and simplify formulas, you are an invaluable asset.
However…. that is not my focus. I have made enough money for this lifetime. If there is a company I model…it would be a hybrid of Newman’s Own. I am at the place in my life…where I am giving back…. making the lives of people with certain conditions a better place. I think you are aware that I work in conjunction with one of the chemist on this site, who has a similar outlook on life.
So if someone that knows me well were to describe me….the word ‘anal’ would certainly be part of the dialogue. So do I think 99% of the people would notice the effect of ceramides in to context of an elegant formula?….Heck no. But that is not what I am after. I am chasing that last (and undetectable) 2%, that might give benefit. Not because they will feel it…because they won’t, but because it might make how they feel (over time) in their own skin, and their world….a better place. The chemist and I work very hard to bring all aspects of the formula together to a single point, and maximizing every aspect down to the last detail. This absolutely includes the placebo effect, which is powerful powerful medicine. The funny thing is….you can do all these things…and still offer the end result at a fair price….once you knock out the 100, 200, 300% profit margins. Not saying I work for free… but my payment is based more on changing people’s lives for the better.
So in a nutshell….I do chase all those little nuances that are completely undetectable, but that I believe might have even the slightest chance of making someone’s life….a better place. And yes….the right combination of anal formulator and genius chemist…magic can happen.
Thank you very much for providing the platform and forum. I am forever in your debt.
Aloha.
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I don’t think penetration is the problem.
But mostly will be stuck at the top layers.https://www.cir-safety.org/sites/default/files/cerami032015rep.pdf
Ceramides are lipophilic and are likely to be readily absorbed
into the skin. However, they are expected to remain in the stratum corneum and not penetrate any deeper.link for reading, differences in cer subclasses in epidermis.
https://bmcdermatol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12895-020-00102-1with Hydrogenated Lecithin pre-blended, it is supposed to form liposome for ceramides’ stability, not the penetration? >>>> have to wait for Pharma.
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@Graillotion The ceramides physiologically can only be present at the the Stratum Corneum and they are not found at the levels of lively cells - granular or spinous layers. So they have nothing to do any deeper, as @Pattsi mentioned. Their main property is creating the lipid bilayers between keratinocytes to repair the impaired or continuously impaired barrier function of the skin, and they perform this function only when combined with other components of the lipid bilayers - fatty acids and cholesterol in equimolar ratio. This “rule” has been confirmed in many studies. Moreover, as a Dr. Elias et all wrote in his study - ” if the ceramide is
provided without the addition of the other 2 key physiologic lipids at an appropriate ratio, i.e., with cholesterol
and ≥1 fatty acids, barrier function deteriorates rather
than improves”. I have to admit from my experience it is true. Any other ratios don’t work. The measurable data such as TEWL confirm that too. A ceramide or a mixture of them when they are incorporated in the formula alone would work with the same efficacy as with let’s say… shea butter.
However, I can state that some emulsions work better in delivery of ceramides. Polyglycerol emulsifiers w/o are the best when formulating with ceramides in terms of efficiency. -
vitalys said:@Graillotion … they perform this function only when combined with other components of the lipid bilayers - fatty acids and cholesterol in equimolar ratio. ….” if the ceramide is
provided without the addition of the other 2 key physiologic lipids at an appropriate ratio, i.e., with cholesterol
and ≥1 fatty acids, barrier function deteriorates rather
than improves”.….. Polyglycerol emulsifiers w/o are the best when formulating with ceramides in terms of efficiency.
Thank you for your response, and @Pattsi as well. So I intend on using /SK-INFLUX® V / INCI (PCPC name)
Ceramide NP; Ceramide AP; Ceramide EOP;
Phytosphingosine; Cholesterol; Sodium Lauroyl
Lactylate; Carbomer; Xanthan Gum …
As the source of my ceramides. Does this preblended package meet the above listed requirements….meaning take cholesterol….is that included at the proper ration to achieve peak performance of this ceramide package?Regarding polyglyceryl emulsifiers…. does this require a micro emulsion for enhanced efficacy, or is it as simple as enhancing the overall package with a polyglyceryl? Here is a list of ones that are readily available to me. Any recommendations?
polyglyceryl-3 stearate
polyglyceryl-4 laurate
Polyglyceryl-4 oleateor
Is there a gold standard…I should be chasing in that category. Those were just the easy access…form a quick shipping supplier.
Thank You
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Polyglyceryl 4 Laurate is cold processable and creates water thin emulsion
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Abdullah said:Polyglyceryl 4 Laurate is cold processable and creates water thin emulsion
I will still use a base of 165….just looking for the ideal co-emulsifier. The rest of the formula requires the strength of 165 to hold it together.
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@Graillotion It all depends on the final formulation and its efficacy you wish to achieve. The question is - whether is it going to be a clinical/OTC/prescribed formulation or just a regular moisturizer? I have not worked with mixtures, so it is hard to answer your question. I worked with pure ingredients, which helped to control the necessary ratio. I assume that the mixture you have mentioned is created for the regular moisturizer and the officially recommended percentage of this combo won’t be enough if you want to get something effective. It is not a secret that ceramides, cholesterol, etc are used as “claim” ingredients and they are used in neglectable amounts due to their price. In this case, the resulting formulation would work as a regular standard product. If you want to get something that could work for the skin barriers, you need 3 different pure ingredients. The starting point is 1% of ceramides based on pure substance.
I don’t think it requires microemulsion for extra performance. As I said - the best efficacy would be achieved with w/o emulsions based on polyglycerol emulsifiers or o/w emulsion with lamellar structure ( a combo of high and low emulsifiers).
One of the gold standards (as a product with clinical efficacy) is EpiCeram while CeraVe represents just another quality moisturizer with relatively standard properties, which can be achieved with many other regular ingredients. -
@Graillotion Could you do me a favour and simply copy-paste my mail replies? Too lazy to re-type everything 🙂 .
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