Dilemma in between Liquid castile vs surfactant base shampoo

drjayseesunishdrjayseesunish Member
in Formulating
I am reading various articles for making hair shampoo and became confused castile liquid soap and surfactant based shampoo as I don't know pros and cons of both. One thing attracted me that is various kind of oil can be used in castile soap liquid so can be good for hair but it contains NaoH, so could be harsh for hair too. So anyone have a look upon it and please share your knowledge. 

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  • SylSyl Member
    Castile soap is alkaline PH of 8.9, this opens the hair cuticle which can cause damage and breakage. You need to rinse with alkaline solution (vinegar) or use a conditioner to minimize damage.
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    First, soap is a surfactant, so when you make a soap-based shampoo you are making a surfactant shampoo. It's a saponified fatty acid surfactant.

    Next, soap, Castile or otherwise, is old technology. The first shampoos were made using it but there is a reason it has been replaced by superior synthetic surfactants. Modern surfactants just work better. And they don't sting your eyes. A soap based shampoo is just terrible in terms of performance.

    If you want conditioning, you get that from a conditioner. Delivering conditioning from a shampoo is inefficient and always inferior to using a conditioner after shampooing. 

    Forget using soap for a shampoo. It's like replacing all your light bulbs with candles.
    Learn to formulate cosmetics
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    True soap-based shampoos were replaced by synthetic surfactant-based products in the 1930's.  
  • drjayseesunishdrjayseesunish Member
    Perry said:
    First, soap is a surfactant, so when you make a soap-based shampoo you are making a surfactant shampoo. It's a saponified fatty acid surfactant.

    Next, soap, Castile or otherwise, is old technology. The first shampoos were made using it but there is a reason it has been replaced by superior synthetic surfactants. Modern surfactants just work better. And they don't sting your eyes. A soap based shampoo is just terrible in terms of performance.

    If you want conditioning, you get that from a conditioner. Delivering conditioning from a shampoo is inefficient and always inferior to using a conditioner after shampooing. 

    Forget using soap for a shampoo. It's like replacing all your light bulbs with candles.
    @Perry Thanks a lot Perry to clear the picture. You are the Gem of knowledge. One more thing to know about the conditioner as in soap making oil is using in oil phase and we can see Dove or any other soap, they left very smooth skin feeling after it's application so, if soap leaves such silky smooth feeling that is only because of oil then, why shampoo doesn't give the same effect as chemistry is the same  for anything.
  • drjayseesunishdrjayseesunish Member
    PhilGeis said:
    True soap-based shampoos were replaced by synthetic surfactant-based products in the 1930's.  
    @PhilGeis thanks 
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @drjayseesunish - well, I wouldn’t agree that if soap leaves a smooth silky feel that it’s only because of the oil. Dove has no oil in it. https://www.target.com/p/dove-white-moisturizing-beauty-bar-soap/-/A-84780837?preselect=11012602#lnk=sametab

    It also contains almost no “soap” and is made up of primarily synthetic surfactants like sodium isoethionate, cocamidopropyl betaine, etc. The better feeling skin is based on the fact that it doesn’t feel drying to skin like a true soap. Those surfactants just feel better on the skin plus they are a little harder to rinse off than other surfactants. 
    Learn to formulate cosmetics
  • drjayseesunishdrjayseesunish Member
    Perry said:
    @drjayseesunish - well, I wouldn’t agree that if soap leaves a smooth silky feel that it’s only because of the oil. Dove has no oil in it. https://www.target.com/p/dove-white-moisturizing-beauty-bar-soap/-/A-84780837?preselect=11012602#lnk=sametab

    It also contains almost no “soap” and is made up of primarily synthetic surfactants like sodium isoethionate, cocamidopropyl betaine, etc. The better feeling skin is based on the fact that it doesn’t feel drying to skin like a true soap. Those surfactants just feel better on the skin plus they are a little harder to rinse off than other surfactants. 
    @Perry thanks for teaching some new things. I have read  that more TFM in a soap, having more mostiourizing  properties so TFM directly indicates the presence of more oil in a soap. I have seen many soap recipes that showing incorporating various  kinds of oil in  soap having  more moisturizing properties. If it's not true then why people using different kinds of oil rather then using very cheap oil like palm oil? And one more thing, price of  this kind of soap is very high, that also relate to price of oil,  please clear my doubts..
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @drjayseesunish - I think there is something you misunderstand about the formation of soap. TFM refers to Total Fatty Material. This doesn't exactly equal "the presence of oil" in a soap. 

    To create soap you initiate a chemical reaction that converts triglycerides (oils) into soap which is a sodium salt of a fatty acid. While the system begins with an oil, the resulting chemical reaction is not an oil any longer. The oil part has been chemically broken down and converted to a single fatty acid salt. 

    So, something with a higher TFM means that it has a higher concentration of soap, not that it has a higher concentration of oil. For the most part, there should be no free oil in a soap bar.

    People use different kinds of oils to make soap because oils are made up of different types of fatty acids such as Lauric, Myristic, Palmitic, Stearic, Behenic, etc. For example, coconut oil has a high concentration of Lauric acid while palm oil has a high concentration of Palmitic acid. Different oils are made up of different ratios of fatty acids. This can result is bars with different characteristics. 

    Price in cosmetics is not always related to the cost involved in making the product. It is much more related to the brand and brand positioning. But all things being equal, some oils cost more than others so it makes sense that the price of the final product would be different.


    Learn to formulate cosmetics
  • mikethairmikethair Member
    I'll chip in my experience. I'm not here to convince others one way or the other.

    We have been making liquid soap for more than 10 years. We saponify coconut oil to make a shampoo. Each batch we make produces around 300 x 250 mL bottles. And it's one of our best sellers.







    Dr. Mike Thair
    Cofounder & Chief Formulator
    Indochine Natural
  • tecnico3viniatecnico3vinia Member
    As Perry said, soap is old technology. People have been using it for ages, but now we have more advanced and sophisticated technology that allows the creation of products that are also more sophisticated and with better characteristics overall (e.g the sensory properties after washing the product).

    Yes, in soap you can use different oils since every oil have different fatty acid profile and can influence the final product properties. Some oils influence the hardness, some the cleansing properties, some the mildness/afterfeel and so on. 

    In the end of the day, there's public for both type of products. Some will prefer soap and some will prefer products with synthetic surfactants. I prefer washes/shampoos with synthetic surfactants, but again, there's public for the both type of products.
  • drjayseesunishdrjayseesunish Member
    edited June 19
    As Perry said, soap is old technology. People have been using it for ages, but now we have more advanced and sophisticated technology that allows the creation of products that are also more sophisticated and with better characteristics overall (e.g the sensory properties after washing the product).

    Yes, in soap you can use different oils since every oil have different fatty acid profile and can influence the final product properties. Some oils influence the hardness, some the cleansing properties, some the mildness/afterfeel and so on. 

    @tecnico3vinia thanks sharing knowledge. 
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