What ingredients provide skin conditioning in face & bodywash like polymer & silicone does for hair?

AbdullahAbdullah Member
in Advanced Questions
Everyone want good shampoo, face wash, bodywash. 
For me, a good shampoo is the one that has silicone & cationic polymer other than having good foam. I am using cationic guar+ Amodimethicone.
Now in a face or bodywash i don't know what is the equivalent of silicone+ polymer in shampoo.

I have made different face & bodywash products with
SLES alone 
SLES+ CAPB
SLES+CAPB+APG
SLES+ CAPB+ cationic guar
SLES+CAPB+ glyceryl oleate
SLES+ CAPB+ cationic guar+ glyceryl oleate

The only noticeable different in all these was foam. Other than that, after feel or skin conditioning was the same or i can say no conditioning at all  

My question is: which ingredients in face or bodywash gives noticable skin conditioning effect the same way that polymer+ silicone gives to hair?

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Comments

  • MariaGarciaMariaGarcia Member
    edited June 13
    I'm just a student and maybe I'm talking nonsense, but I think that the needs and therefore the conditioning mechanisms are not the same for hair or skin, so there are no exact analogs. I understand that hair conditioning depends more on aspects such as pH, ionic charge (and that is why cationic substances are used) or the closing of the cuticle. In a shampoo I understand that the type of surfactants used also makes a big difference (I don't have much experience but I have achieved results that I really like using a combination of anionic, non-ionic and amphoteric surfactants). I would also add some refatting agent, and some active ingredient (I personally love the effect of inulin).
    In the case of skin, I believe that conditioning depends on maintaining and reinforcing the barrier function of the skin so it is important that the mixture of surfactants is effective but gentle (and in lower imputs than in shampoos), and at least, a refatting agent and a moisturizer should be incorporated, or even an very small imput of a lipid. It doesn't make sense to me to use a cationic ingredient in a face or body wash.
    I find that anyway it is not a single product that achieves the result, but the proper combination and proportion of all of them.
  • ketchitoketchito Member
    @Abdullah You should feel a difference with a Guar HPTC formula...maybe you need to increase the level. Also, you could add some silicone (same principle as in hair).
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    MariaGarcia said:
    I'm just a student and maybe I'm talking nonsense, but I think that the needs and therefore the conditioning mechanisms are not the same for hair or skin, so there are no exact analogs. I understand that hair conditioning depends more on aspects such as pH, ionic charge (and that is why cationic substances are used) or the closing of the cuticle. In a shampoo I understand that the type of surfactants used also makes a big difference (I don't have much experience but I have achieved results that I really like using a combination of anionic, non-ionic and amphoteric surfactants). I would also add some refatting agent, and some active ingredient (I personally love the effect of inulin).
    In the case of skin, I believe that conditioning depends on maintaining and reinforcing the barrier function of the skin so it is important that the mixture of surfactants is effective but gentle (and in lower imputs than in shampoos), and at least, a refatting agent and a moisturizer should be incorporated, or even an very small imput of a lipid. It doesn't make sense to me to use a cationic ingredient in a face or body wash.
    I find that anyway it is not a single product that achieves the result, but the proper combination and proportion of all of them.
    Thanks
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    ketchito said:
    @Abdullah You should feel a difference with a Guar HPTC formula...maybe you need to increase the level. Also, you could add some silicone (same principle as in hair).
    I definitely see a difference in foam but I can't notice any difference on my skin. 

    What type of effect should i look for in guar Hydroxypropyltrimonium Chloride in skin cleanser?

    For hair i am using Amodimethicone. 
    I have experienced that if i used Amodimethicone too much or in wrong way in shampoo, it irritates the scalp. Is it safe to use Amodimethicone in skin products?
  • Cafe33Cafe33 Member
    edited June 15
    Are you open to changing your surfactant system? 

    Also, Polyquat-39 can be an impressive addition in my experience. 
  • ketchitoketchito Member
    @Abdullah Usually, you don't use a high quat load in skin products (yes, catonic surfactants are more irritating in leave on products, specially when applied on the skin), but a bit of Guar HPTC won't hurt (usually, you feel a velvety dry fealing when skin is dry). Also, for skin cleansers I'd prefer a non-charged silicone (like Dimethicone). 
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    ketchito said:
    @Abdullah Usually, you don't use a high quat load in skin products (yes, catonic surfactants are more irritating in leave on products, specially when applied on the skin), but a bit of Guar HPTC won't hurt (usually, you feel a velvety dry fealing when skin is dry). Also, for skin cleansers I'd prefer a non-charged silicone (like Dimethicone). 
    Thanks
    Any preference about viscosity of dimethicone for skin?
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    Cafe33 said:
    Are you open to changing your surfactant system? 

    Also, Polyquat-39 can be an impressive addition in my experience. 
    Yes i am always willing to change and improve.
  • MariaGarciaMariaGarcia Member
    I never stop learning on this forum. What is the benefit of adding cationic substances to skin products? I was convinced that they were only used in hair products to combat frizz.
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    MariaGarcia said:
    I never stop learning on this forum. What is the benefit of adding cationic substances to skin products? I was convinced that they were only used in hair products to combat frizz.
    Come people likes the way they feel
  • MariaGarciaMariaGarcia Member
    Interesting. Thank you, Abdullah.
  • Cafe33Cafe33 Member
    edited June 17
    @Abdullah, it might be a bit of a challenge using SLES and trying to create a good skin feel. I am by no means an expert but all of my attempt were failures. I switched to a different surfactant system using Sarcosinate, Decyl Glucoside, CAPB with some Lamesoft PO 65 or some PEG 7 Glyceryl Oleate. You will have to thicken it of course. I found Ultrez 20 to work well but it might make the price of your formula too high. 
  • Bill_TogeBill_Toge Member, Professional Chemist
    generally speaking, refatting agents (e.g. PEG-8 olive glycerides) improve the skin-feel
    using sodium cocoyl glutamate as a secondary surfactant also gives the product a pleasant after-feel
    using Methocel as a thickener also boosts the foam and improves the skin-feel
    UK based formulation chemist. Strongest subjects: hair styling, hair bleaches, hair dyes (oxidative and non-oxidative) I know some stuff about: EU regulations, emulsions (O/W and W/O), toothpaste, mouthwash, shampoos, other toiletries
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    @Bill_Toge thanks 

    Should i use PEG-8 olive glycerides with deposition aid like cationic guar or if used alone can also improve skin feel.

    By methocel, do you mean Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose or something else? 
    Can you write the inci name please.

  • zeteinzetein Member
    https://patents.google.com/patent/JP6563191B2/en
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    zetein said:
    https://patents.google.com/patent/JP6563191B2/en
    How to download it in English? 

  • Bill_TogeBill_Toge Member, Professional Chemist
    Abdullah said:
    By methocel, do you mean Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose or something else? 
    Can you write the inci name please.

    a high-viscosity grade of hydroxypropyl methylcellulose

    UK based formulation chemist. Strongest subjects: hair styling, hair bleaches, hair dyes (oxidative and non-oxidative) I know some stuff about: EU regulations, emulsions (O/W and W/O), toothpaste, mouthwash, shampoos, other toiletries
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    Bill_Toge said:
    Abdullah said:
    By methocel, do you mean Hydroxypropyl Methylcellulose or something else? 
    Can you write the inci name please.

    a high-viscosity grade of hydroxypropyl methylcellulose

    Thanks
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    @Bill_Togewhat percentage of total surfactant should be sodium cocoyl glutamate at least to be able to notice the skin feel? 
  • zeteinzetein Member
    You can't. But you can see the auto-translation scrolling down that page.
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    Abdullah said:
    @Bill_Togewhat percentage of total surfactant should be sodium cocoyl glutamate at least to be able to notice the skin feel? 
    What percentage of total surfactant should be sodium cocoyl glutamate at least to be able to notice the skin feel? 
  • Bill_TogeBill_Toge Member, Professional Chemist
    @Abdullah I found 2-5% w/w to be effective
    UK based formulation chemist. Strongest subjects: hair styling, hair bleaches, hair dyes (oxidative and non-oxidative) I know some stuff about: EU regulations, emulsions (O/W and W/O), toothpaste, mouthwash, shampoos, other toiletries
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    Bill_Toge said:
    @Abdullah I found 2-5% w/w to be effective
    Thanks
  • grapefruit22grapefruit22 Member
    @Abdullah Maybe you can take a look at what ingredients are generally used by other moisturizing face cleansers - for example Fresh Soy Cleanser is quite popular.
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    grapefruit22 said:
    @Abdullah Maybe you can take a look at what ingredients are generally used by other moisturizing face cleansers - for example Fresh Soy Cleanser is quite popular.
    Have you used this product? 

    If yes, what did you like about it? 

    When i checked the ingredients, it has only coco glucoside for cleansing which can dry the skin, everything else looks to be below 1% and nothing in it looks like a skin conditioner to me. 

    https://www.sephora.com/product/soy-face-cleanser-P7880

    Aqua (Water), Coco-Glucoside, Butylene Glycol, Glycerin, Propanediol, Xanthan Gum, 1,2-Hexanediol, Polyglyceryl-10 Laurate, Centaurea Cyanus Flower Water, Cucumis Sativus (Cucumber) Fruit Extract, Helianthus Annuus (Sunflower) Seed Oil, Borago Officinalis Seed Oil, Hydrolyzed Soy Protein, Rosa Damascena Extract, Rosa Damascena Flower Water, Aloe Barbadensis Leaf Juice, Panax Ginseng Root Extract, Malva Sylvestris (Mallow) Flower Extract, Rosa Damascena Flower Oil, Tocopherol, Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride, Caprylyl Glycol, Hydrolyzed Jojoba Esters, Silica, Citric Acid, Pentylene Glycol, Caramel, Sodium Hydroxide, Sodium Benzoate, Potassium Sorbate.
  • grapefruit22grapefruit22 Member
    It looks like it was reformulated a few months ago:
    https://www.newbeauty.com/fresh-soy-cleanser-update/
    I only used the old version, you can find INCI here:
    https://www.cultbeauty.com/fresh-soy-face-cleanser-various-sizes/13463049.html
    I've been using it for years, I like it because it doesn't dry out at all. When I test a product or ingredient, I wash my face after each use, sometimes several times a day, and I had no problems with this cleanser.
    I thought about it because you mentioned that you want the conditioning effect. When rinsing it off, you can feel that the skin is super smooth, and it reminds me of the feeling of rinsing off hair conditioner. After drying, I don't feel this smoothness very clearly on my face. A bit different than with ingredients such as PCA Glyceryl Oleate or Sucrose Cocoate. They affect the foam in my opinion, but I don't feel this smoothness while rinsing. In addition, the PCA Glyceryl Oleate irritated my eyes, and the Sucrose Cocoate had a distinct, not so nice coconut smell.
    I used Disodium/Sodium Cocoyl Glutamate, but the conditioning effect was much less noticeable, and imperceptible to me when using gum for thickening.
    In my little experience, it's rather hard to create a non-drying product without the use of thickeners. I tried a combination of different surfactants, with and without refatting surfactants, and the amount of surfactants that was enough for cleansing + was non-drying, was not sufficient to thicken even with a lot of salt. I mean, of course after adding salt it was thicker, but just not enough. On the other hand, in some cases if you use a thickener, the foaming and cleansing power is weakened. Then you can try to thicken the product in another way, for example with Sorbithix L-100.


  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    Looks like the formula on Sephora is the updated one and that PEG-7 Glyceryl Cocoate was not doing anything good so they have removed it. 
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