Does salicylic acid from facewash or shampoo need cationic polymer as deposition aid to do its job?

AbdullahAbdullah Member
in Formulating
If we use 2-3% salicylic acid in facewash or shampoo for anti acne and anti dandruff purpose, should we use a cationic polymer as deposition aid with it or it doesn't need to deposit to do it's job? 
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Comments

  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    In a rinse-off product, it doesn't do any job other than marketing. Whatever you do, it will simply be flushed down the drain.
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    @Pharma WOW

    Is it only salicylic acid that doesn't do anything for acne and dandruff from rinse off product or benzoyl peroxide also doesn't do anything from rinse off product? 
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @abdullah:

    The average contact time of a surfactant-based face wash is 20 seconds prior to rinsing.  Unless the active has an impact within that 20 second time frame, it generally will not have much of an effect.  Placebo effect.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals & Clean Beauty arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program/Clean At Sephora/Credo Clean guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    I'm a bit skeptical benzoyl peroxide does much from a rinse off product. It is not soluble in water so it likely will just get washed away like all the other oily materials.
    Learn to formulate cosmetics
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    @Perry @MarkBroussard @Pharma   so what about OTC benzoyl peroxide cleansers and salicylic acid cleansers and soap's?

    Can a product that doesn't do any benefit except just being a cleanser be called and registered as an OTC drug? 
    If salicylic acid from an OTC cleanser or soap is not doing anything then it is just a cleanser or soap called OTC with doing nothing, right? 
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @abdullah:

    Yes, any cleanser containing 2% SA and making Acne claims under the FDA monograph would be an OTC.  That is primarily for marketing purposes so you can market it as an Acne OTC product.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals & Clean Beauty arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program/Clean At Sephora/Credo Clean guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    Products with benzoyl peroxide need to be left on for at least 1-2 minutes, other rinse-off products for example with fungicides require up to 5 minutes (of freezing you butt off in the showers)...
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    MarkBroussard said:
    @abdullah:

    Yes, any cleanser containing 2% SA and making Acne claims under the FDA monograph would be an OTC.  That is primarily for marketing purposes so you can market it as an Acne OTC product.
    Thanks a lot
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    @Pharma so these people with acne are leaving a soap with salicylic acid for five minutes on their face to get some benefit or they are rinsing it before one minute and getting no benefit for acne. Am i correct? 

  • zeteinzetein Member
    How does refatting agent like glyceryl oleate or peg-7 glyceryl cocoate or other water soluble esters work? It does give a different feeling and it's advised to be included in the formula by many experts here.
  • ketchitoketchito Member
    @Abdullah This might be a good read about the topic:
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @Abdullah

    People with acne will normally use a suite of products, including leave-on products which is where they get the benefit, from the leave-on products, not the cleansers.  But, adding SA to a cleanser certainly will not hurt, it just won't do very much in terms of effectiveness in delivering an active against acne.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals & Clean Beauty arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program/Clean At Sephora/Credo Clean guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    MarkBroussard said:
    @Abdullah

    People with acne will normally use a suite of products, including leave-on products which is where they get the benefit, from the leave-on products, not the cleansers.  But, adding SA to a cleanser certainly will not hurt, it just won't do very much in terms of effectiveness in delivering an active against acne.
    That makes sense
    Thanks a lot


  • amitvedakaramitvedakar Member
    MarkBroussard said:
    @abdullah:

    The average contact time of a surfactant-based face wash is 20 seconds prior to rinsing.  Unless the active has an impact within that 20 second time frame, it generally will not have much of an effect.  Placebo effect.

    If contact time is increased to 30-60 second with rubbing, will it beneficial?
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @amitvedakar - I doubt it. The surfactants are emulsifying oils so most of the salicylic acid will be tied up in a micelle & not in contact with skin. 
    Learn to formulate cosmetics
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    Perry said:
    @amitvedakar - I doubt it. The surfactants are emulsifying oils so most of the salicylic acid will be tied up in a micelle & not in contact with skin. 
    Can't polymer help salicylic acid deposition the same way it does help silicone deposition?
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @Abdullah

    In order for SA to be effecive in an acne product, the SA needs to actually penetrate into the hair follicle.  That simply is highly unlikely to happen in a cleanser.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals & Clean Beauty arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program/Clean At Sephora/Credo Clean guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    MarkBroussard said:
    @Abdullah

    In order for SA to be effecive in an acne product, the SA needs to actually penetrate into the hair follicle.  That simply is highly unlikely to happen in a cleanser.
    Got it
    Thanks
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