Comments

• Abdullah Member

  April 26

  If this is your first formulating, you have 3 options.
   
  1. take a course to learn properly and then formulate according to what you have learned.
  
  2. Purchase a formula that work from a chemist that knows.
  
  3. be prepared to make tens or hundreds of wrong samples until you make a stable or good product.
  
  When i started, i searched Google for best ingredients for a Shampoo, then searched for formulas with those ingredients, then purchased those ingredients in bulk because i had to import them from another country and i was starting business too.
  When i received them and made the product, it was the worst formula and those ingredients wore the worst ingredients too. 
  So don't trust google.
  
  About your formula, i don't know about transparent lotions but your IPBC and HA is too high, you will need more and stronger emulsifier, your will need citric acid and sodium hydroxide to adjust pH and a pH meter to check your pH.
   
• Camel Member

  April 26

  @Sm00thskin - My advice would be to start small. You have too many ingredients for your first formula and it will be hard to troubleshoot any problems you may find with it.
  
  There are three main components to a proper moisturizer:
  

  • Humectants
  • Emollients
  • Occlusives

  I would suggest you choose one humectant, one emollient and one occlusive to start with.
  
  I would recommend starting with Glycerin as your sole humectant. It is very inexpensive. 
  
  If you want the formula to be clear, you will need to choose a clear oil (or ester) as your emollient. You could try mineral oil if you are concerned about cost, as it is probably the cheapest oil, yet still a very effective emollient.
  
  For your occlusive, I would recommend petrolatum as your most cost-effective (and generally effective) option. You could also consider dimethicone, but it will cost more. 
  
  You will probably need to use a polymeric emulsifier, such as Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate Crosspolymer, as other emulsifiers will likely create a white lotion. It doesn't look like your proposed formula has a proper emulsification system. PEG-40 HCO is best used as a solubilizer for fragrances (and I don't think you'll even need it with a proper emulsifier...)
  
  You are already using a chelating agent (EDTA), which is great, keep that. 
  
  As for the pH, you will need to purchase a pH meter and check the pH yourself. It would be hard for us to predict the pH of your formula, especially with that many ingredients. 
  
  Your starting formula could look something like this:
  

  • Water
  • Glycerin
  • Mineral Oil
  • Petrolatum
  • Polymeric Emulsifier
  • Preservative
  • Chelating Agent
  • Fragrance (optional)

  Test it out. Make notes of what you like and what you dislike about it. From there, it will be easier to recommend changes to achieve your desired results. Once you get to the base you like, you can start to add additional ingredients like niacinamide, preferably one-by-one.
  
  Formulating is a test, and unfortunately it requires trial-and-error to pass.
  
  Disclaimer: I am not a professional/expert. This advice comes from my own experience as a beginner and is not sound knowledge. I have also never formulated a clear/transparent lotion, for the record. 
  

  
  
• jemolian Member

  April 26

  Please guide me whether the mixing of these materials will give me a transparent lotion or not?

  No, it will not. You might want to test whether your solubilizer is able to solubilize all your lipid ingredients first then see how much percentage is required to make it transparent. 

  Will the NaPCA make the pH of product on 5-6 or it will be less? It is a good humoctant as well.
  

  No one will know, so you need pH buffers if your formula requires. Don't depend on Sodium PCA to adjust the pH. 

  I also read here that so many chemists are against HEC, why? Because of its solubility and time wasting? Or its feeling on skin?
  

  They have their reasons, but do know that HEC is fine to use, just that it will require processing to ensure that it hydrates properly. 

  Generally is it good moisturizer lotion with smoothing feeling?
  

  Hard to predict that.

  One more question is I'm worry about the stability of the product according to the ratio of oil and water phase, in textbook it's max 74%, mine is so much!  

  It's a reference but it depends on what materials you use. 

  ----

  If you want to make a transparent lotion, there may be 2 ways:

  1. Solubilize the lipid / oil phase, then thicken it. However, the lipid phase shouldn't be that large because the solubilizer can cause soaping due to the percentage required. 
  2. If you look for clear or transparent type lotions in retail, they may use a water soluble emollient or lipid. Normally those will be PPG / PEG type emollients or silicones. Sometimes they may add humectants but call it a lotion.  
• Sm00thskin Member

  April 26

  Abdullah said:

  If this is your first formulating, you have 3 options.
   
  1. take a course to learn properly and then formulate according to what you have learned.
  
  2. Purchase a formula that work from a chemist that knows.
  
  3. be prepared to make tens or hundreds of wrong samples until you make a stable or good product.
  
  When i started, i searched Google for best ingredients for a Shampoo, then searched for formulas with those ingredients, then purchased those ingredients in bulk because i had to import them from another country and i was starting business too.
  When i received them and made the product, it was the worst formula and those ingredients wore the worst ingredients too. 
  So don't trust google.
  
  About your formula, i don't know about transparent lotions but your IPBC and HA is too high, you will need more and stronger emulsifier, your will need citric acid and sodium hydroxide to adjust pH and a pH meter to check your pH.
   

  thank you very much, actually I know little about formulation and now I am watching different tutorial videos as well, I'm on the way don't worry I never trust google, about formulation I have deleted LMW HA (NaHA) and now HMW HA is only 0.5% . yes i decided to delete NaPCA and use citric buffer instead.
• Sm00thskin Member

  April 26

  Camel said:

  @Sm00thskin - My advice would be to start small. You have too many ingredients for your first formula and it will be hard to troubleshoot any problems you may find with it.
  
  There are three main components to a proper moisturizer:
  

  • Humectants
  • Emollients
  • Occlusives

  I would suggest you choose one humectant, one emollient and one occlusive to start with.
  
  I would recommend starting with Glycerin as your sole humectant. It is very inexpensive. 
  
  If you want the formula to be clear, you will need to choose a clear oil (or ester) as your emollient. You could try mineral oil if you are concerned about cost, as it is probably the cheapest oil, yet still a very effective emollient.
  
  For your occlusive, I would recommend petrolatum as your most cost-effective (and generally effective) option. You could also consider dimethicone, but it will cost more. 
  
  You will probably need to use a polymeric emulsifier, such as Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate Crosspolymer, as other emulsifiers will likely create a white lotion. It doesn't look like your proposed formula has a proper emulsification system. PEG-40 HCO is best used as a solubilizer for fragrances (and I don't think you'll even need it with a proper emulsifier...)
  
  You are already using a chelating agent (EDTA), which is great, keep that. 
  
  As for the pH, you will need to purchase a pH meter and check the pH yourself. It would be hard for us to predict the pH of your formula, especially with that many ingredients. 
  
  Your starting formula could look something like this:
  

  • Water
  • Glycerin
  • Mineral Oil
  • Petrolatum
  • Polymeric Emulsifier
  • Preservative
  • Chelating Agent
  • Fragrance (optional)

  Test it out. Make notes of what you like and what you dislike about it. From there, it will be easier to recommend changes to achieve your desired results. Once you get to the base you like, you can start to add additional ingredients like niacinamide, preferably one-by-one.
  
  Formulating is a test, and unfortunately it requires trial-and-error to pass.
  
  Disclaimer: I am not a professional/expert. This advice comes from my own experience as a beginner and is not sound knowledge. I have also never formulated a clear/transparent lotion, for the record. 
  

  
  

  Thank you very much for your time, I changed my formulation according to your advice, 

  in fact, I have added oil phase as an occlusive, then I don't think it is necessary to add occlusive again or not? 

  For emollient, i changed castor oil to the coconut oil which is clear and good for dry skin and I often use it, on the other side, it also needs low RHLB than castor oil ( So, I hope polymeric emulsifier and PG will solubilize it)
  I think Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate Crosspolymer is a good option as it is a thickening agent too. (in this way I will not need HEC as a gelling agent). I will delete PEG40 too but I will buy it . in case I need a strong emulsifier I will add some. I will share my final formula with you.
• Sm00thskin Member

  April 26

  jemolian said:

  Please guide me whether the mixing of these materials will give me a transparent lotion or not?

  No, it will not. You might want to test whether your solubilizer is able to solubilize all your lipid ingredients first then see how much percentage is required to make it transparent. 

  Will the NaPCA make the pH of product on 5-6 or it will be less? It is a good humoctant as well.
  

  No one will know, so you need pH buffers if your formula requires. Don't depend on Sodium PCA to adjust the pH. 

  I also read here that so many chemists are against HEC, why? Because of its solubility and time wasting? Or its feeling on skin?
  

  They have their reasons, but do know that HEC is fine to use, just that it will require processing to ensure that it hydrates properly. 

  Generally is it good moisturizer lotion with smoothing feeling?
  

  Hard to predict that.

  One more question is I'm worry about the stability of the product according to the ratio of oil and water phase, in textbook it's max 74%, mine is so much!  

  It's a reference but it depends on what materials you use. 

  ----

  If you want to make a transparent lotion, there may be 2 ways:

  1. Solubilize the lipid / oil phase, then thicken it. However, the lipid phase shouldn't be that large because the solubilizer can cause soaping due to the percentage required. 
  2. If you look for clear or transparent type lotions in retail, they may use a water soluble emollient or lipid. Normally those will be PPG / PEG type emollients or silicones. Sometimes they may add humectants but call it a lotion.  

  Thank you very much for your time and useful comment, yes i decreased the level of the oil to 1% to use the less emulsifier/solubilizer and for pH i decided to use buffer.
  
• Sm00thskin Member

  April 26

  I have just modified the formulation in this way:
  
  

  coconut oil 1%

  vit E 0.5%

  water 88%

  Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate 0.05%

  glycerin 4%

  PG 2%

  EDTA Na 0.1

  Iodopropynyl Butyl Carbamate (IPBC) 0.1%

  Phenoxyethanol.  0.5%

  Allantoin 0.5%

  HMW HA 0.5%

  niacinamide (B3) 3%

  citric acid, adjusting the pH
• jemolian Member

  April 26 edited April 26

  Your percentage of Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate is too low. You might want to state the trade name of this ingredient since there are many types, some are not meant for emulsifying.
  
  You will normally need an alkaline buffer if you use Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate. 
• Sm00thskin Member

  April 27

  jemolian said:

  Your percentage of Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate is too low. You might want to state the trade name of this ingredient since there are many types, some are not meant for emulsifying.
  
  You will normally need an alkaline buffer if you use Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate. 

  thank you, I searched about your comment yes i have to use the high molecular weight of copolymer so that i can use both as emulsifier and thickening agent with varies percentage, actually pH of 5 will be a ideal for this, you know actually this polymer is presented to the market as tightly coiled then after hydrating it is slowly starting to uncoil with a negative charge, slightly acidic. best condition to repel each other and remain uncoil.
  so, i don't know why you use alkaline condition! it might temporarily increase hydrating but it lose its performance as emulsifier and thickening agent! please correct me if i am wrong, I have never worked with this copolymer, generally i don't have much practical experience i have scientific character!  
  
• jemolian Member

  April 27 edited April 27

  you know actually this polymer is presented to the market as tightly coiled then after hydrating it is slowly starting to uncoil with a negative charge, slightly acidic. best condition to repel each other and remain uncoil.

  You might want to look again at the tech sheet. It comes as acidic & "coiled", it "uncoils" when wetted in water and with the pH increased above pH 4.5, depending on the specific polymer. 

  https://www.lubrizol.com/-/media/Lubrizol/Health/TDS/TDS-237_Neutralizing_Carbopol_Pemulen_in_Aqueous_Hydroalcoholic_Systems--PH.pdf
• Sm00thskin Member

  April 28

  @jemolian  yes simple to understand maybe this uncoil polymer make it more acidic and we would need NaOH to bring it to range and make it optimum, very good thank you
• Pharma Member, Pharmacist

  April 29

  You have too much allantoin in there, it's not going to dissolve at that %.

  A transparent emulsion can be obtained by two means. A: droplet size small enough to not diffract light = micro- or nanoemulsion or B: adjust refractivce index of water phase to fit oil phase.

  Both strategies aren't for beginners and your formulation is far off of what it takes.