Euxyl PE 9010 and it’s “smell”

I have a Hyaluronic Acid serum i am using preservative euxyl pe 9010 at 1% and potassium sorbate at 0.25%. It’s the potassium sorbate even really effective at this rate? Is there any other better solutions for mold control than potassium sorbate because I’m wondering if some of the irritation the customers are complaining about is related to it. Also, getting some complaints about the characteristic smell of the euxyl pe 9010, any ideas how to cover it up? 
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Comments

  • What is the pH and other ingredients?

    I would say use sodium benzoate with 9010.
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    Yes, some consumers report irritation from phenoxyethanol.

    "Is there any other better solutions for mold control than potassium sorbate..." 

    Yes, Methylparaben is better and doesn't cause irritation.
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    Could "smell" may also be due to sorbic acid instability/oxidation?
  • No, the smell is from the Phenoxyethanol, it has a strong smell. I will try making a small batch with 0.5% Euxyl pe 9010 and 0.75% and send it to a lab testing to see if it can hold up
  • MaydayMayday Member
    edited March 14
    I do not get much of an odor with 0.5% Phenoxyethanol or Sodium Benzoate (both LotionCrafter).

    I do get a sharp and pungent acid smell with Potassium Sorbate (Organic Creations) after activating with pH adjustment. 
    ⚠️ I have a lot of ideas, but not much experience! Please keep this in mind when reading my suggestions. ⚠️
  • Mayday, and what percentage are you using Potassium Sorbate, I haven't really noticed too much of a smell from the Potassium Sorbate, however I know the smell of the Phenoxyethanol is quite strong. I am going to try 0.5%, have you had a mostly water based system and done PET on it?
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    Suggest phenoxy max 5000 ppm.  If that isn't effective, greater level is unlikely to help.
    Sorbate as unsaturated molecule can undergo oxidation.
  • @PhilGeis do you mean if 0.5% phenoxyethanol cant protect against bacteria, 1% may not be effective too?

    Or i couldn't understand correctly. 
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    yes
  • MaydayMayday Member
    sean9980 said:
    Mayday, and what percentage are you using Potassium Sorbate, I haven't really noticed too much of a smell from the Potassium Sorbate, however I know the smell of the Phenoxyethanol is quite strong. I am going to try 0.5%, have you had a mostly water based system and done PET on it?
    0.15% KSorb and 0.35% NaBenz adjusted to pH ~4.2 with HCl.

    Informally, neither KSorb nor NaBenz had an odor at neutral pH. After activating with HCl, only KSorb had an odor. This may just be my specific sample from Organic Creations. However, my current opinion is that sorbate may be more trouble than it's worth due to flushing reactions, oxidation, yellowing, and possible pungent odor—compared to benzoate.

    Likewise, my Phenoxyethanol does not have much noticable odor. If yours does, I suggest sampling other suppliers for one that better suits your product.

    Also I agree with Abdullah above. Sodium Benzoate is likely better. But formula must be pH adjusted appropriately for the benzoate to be useful.

    I expect if your pH is above 5.0 the benzoate will not be an adequate preservative unless you add excessive amounts.


    ⚠️ I have a lot of ideas, but not much experience! Please keep this in mind when reading my suggestions. ⚠️
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    Nice post Mayday.   I too have had trouble with sorbate and also had little to no issue with phenoxy odor (mine at 5000 ppm or less).
    One add - benzoic acid with surfactants can have efficacy well above the indicated pH from pKa.  Can send some documentation
    I used this in preservation (with isothiazolinones) for surfactant products face wash, shampoo, hand soaps for many years.
  • Well it could be because I have it at 1%, I am making a few samples of 0.50 and .75 and sending it to the lab for the KoKo testing
  • PhilGeis said:
    Nice post Mayday.   I too have had trouble with sorbate and also had little to no issue with phenoxy odor (mine at 5000 ppm or less).
    One add - benzoic acid with surfactants can have efficacy well above the indicated pH from pKa.  Can send some documentation
    I used this in preservation (with isothiazolinones) for surfactant products face wash, shampoo, hand soaps for many years.

    Is it a mostly water based system?
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    edited March 14
    the products were
    here's a poster for the benzoic acid/pH efficacy.  There's also an article SOFW about 5 years ago
  • @PhilGeis thanks

    Is this so only for hyaluronic acid serum or in any product like shampoo and emulsion too? 
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    I'm only aware of phenomenon with surfactant-based products 
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    edited March 15
    PhilGeis said:
    I'm only aware of phenomenon with surfactant-based products 
    Does it include anionic and cationic emulsions too or only surfactants based cleansing products? 
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    Data I've seen is with anionic surfactants.
  • PhilGeis said:
    Data I've seen is with anionic surfactants.
    Thanks
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