CMIT MIT solution stability in CAPB

AbdullahAbdullah Member
edited January 22 in Advanced Questions
I want to add <1ppm CMIT MIT to all my cleansing products. As this is a very small quantity and for ~500g sample batches it is impossible to measure, i want to add 24 ppm of CMIT MIT to CAPB and store it. then when needed use ~5% of this CAPB to get ~1ppm CMIT MIT in final product. 

My question is:  will CMIT MIT be stable if i mix it with CAPB and store it? 

Comments

  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    Why <1 ppm?  Lonza doesn't offer any data.  This could be marketing BS like so many of the preservative combinations offered as broad spectrum across wide pH range and formulations.
    Don't know the answer.  Stuff is so soluble - maybe you could test with semi quant agar diffusion.


  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    edited January 22
    PhilGeis said:
    Why <1 ppm?  Lonza doesn't offer any data.  This could be marketing BS like so many of the preservative combinations offered as broad spectrum across wide pH range and formulations.
    Don't know the answer.  Stuff is so soluble - maybe you could test with semi quant agar diffusion.


    I value what you say.

    when about Lonzaserve ID & PC you said very effective and overkill and a novel combination, they got my attention. 

    And as i am afraid my manufacturing condition may not be very good (for example i clean the equipments well but don't sanitize them), i want to use such a blend to prevent manufacturing contaminations and adaptation.

    As i currently dont have DMDM hydantoin available, i want to use formalin in equal amount as formaldehyde in DMDM hydantoin.

     Also 1ppm CMIT MIT is the upper recommend level in Lonzaserve PC so i use that amount. 
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    Sorry - my comment before was in ref to both at effective levels.  +

    Why not sanitize?  Preservation - even pumped up - fails to poor hygiene. Can you describe your sanitization challenges more specifically.
  • PhilGeis said:
    Sorry - my comment before was in ref to both at effective levels.  +

    Why not sanitize?  Preservation - even pumped up - fails to poor hygiene. Can you describe your sanitization challenges more specifically.
    I have two main problems with sanitization.

    1. Purchasing anything with the name alcohol here is difficult to purchase and usually costs a lot. For example purchasing ethanol costs more than CMIT MIT.

    2. I use inline homogenizer and it is difficult to sanitize the pipes with ethanol. Or I don't know the correct way of sanitizing pipes with ethanol.
    If i fill the pipes with ethanol then it will need several kgs of ethanol to fill it because i can't spray inside of pipes.
    That will increase the production cost a lot.

    I currently wash everything with tap water and detergent properly after use. And also clean it before next use.

    any advice would be appreciated
  • PhilGeis said:
    Sorry - my comment before was in ref to both at effective levels.  +

    Why not sanitize?  Preservation - even pumped up - fails to poor hygiene. Can you describe your sanitization challenges more specifically.
    I really like to use a combination of these two preservatives (formalin+CMIT MIT) for several reasons. 

    1. They both have good price. Suitable for types for products i make. Other preservatives, the cheapest one's like DMDM hydantoin, phenoxyethanol and sodium benzoate are at least 4 times more expensive and needs higher amount to be used so increase the price even more.

    2. If i use one of these two at higher percentage or there upper limit, they may not be so gentle. But if i combine then and use lower amount they maybe more gentle.

    3. The risk of adaptation. So combination is better for this purpose.

    4. I don't see any problem with mixing these too products. Only benefits B). So if there is any downside please let me know.

    5. These two are the only preservatives available locally. Other preservatives i have to import and purchase in higher quantities. 

    6. I already purchased 1kg CMIT MIT but haven't used them yet.

    If you have any suggested usage rate for this combo to start with, i am looking for your advices. 
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    Under stand the preservative combination but have no experience or data for the minimal CMIT level.

    For sanitization - what about hypochlorite?
  • PhilGeis said:
    Under stand the preservative combination but have no experience or data for the minimal CMIT level.

    For sanitization - what about hypochlorite?
    I have to search if it is available locally.

    Is it in powder form or liquid form?

  • I think IPA can be good option. For sanitation/Availability. 
  • @PhilGeis Yes hypochlorite or bleach is available in liquid form locally. 
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    100 ppm available chlorine  pH ~6.5 BUT NO Lower than 6 is a good sanitizer.  Rinse with process water.
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    edited January 24
    PhilGeis said:
    100 ppm available chlorine  pH ~6.5 BUT NO Lower than 6 is a good sanitizer.  Rinse with process water.
    Thanks a lot 

    Some clarifications

    1. pH not lower than 6. Correct? What if it is above 6.5 or 7?

    2. In how much contact time will it sanitize the equipmenta? 

    3. By process water, do you mean the filtered water that i use in making products or tap water is also ok?

    4. If i sanitize  the pipe with a 100ppm solution, can i store that same solution and reuse it again and again or i can use it just one time? 

    5. The suppliers here are like illiterate in knowing the details of product. He was telling me that is this bleach is 28-30 degree. When i asked them, do you mean percentage? He said: we call it degree. I don't know what percentage means.
    Do they mean it has 28-30% chlorine and i should make 100 ppm solution from it?


  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    6.5 is better - 7 is ok.  NOT lower than 6 - it'll evolve chlorine gas and that is a very bad health risk.   20-30 minutes - recirculate if you can.  Commercial liquid bleach is usually ~ 5%.

    you can buy test strips on Amazon 

    Water - you need to rinse out the stuff with water no worse than process water - NOT tap water.  Start production - fill with product no more than 6 hours after sanitization.

    What is composition of your system?  Stainless steel?  PVC?  Y

    Clean it before you attempt to sanitize.

    You should wear eye protection.
  • @PhilGeis thanks a lot. 

    "Start production - fill with product no more than 6 hours after sanitization."

    Do you mean i should sanitize the equipments no more than 6 hours before each production, then rinse it, then start production?

    Equipments are
    stainless steel 304 homogenizer

    Metal drum(inside painted with car paint to prevent oxidation

    Plastic pipes 

    Plastic 

    I don't know the type of plastics so i have attached photos




  • Also should we dilute the bleach in process water or tap water is also ok?
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    Right - with the timing but I'd rinse right after sanitizing so it doesn't screw up your paint etc. - then apply 6-12 hour limit.
    Plastic/paint will be your on going risk.  
    Process water - turn off the tap.
  • @PhilGeis thanks 

    Some more questions
    1. Should i sanitize the bottles and caps too? 
    If yes, in how much contact time will they sanitize? 

    2. for tank, should i fill the tank with 100ppm chlorine solution and leave it full for 20 minutes, then rinse it with clean water and continue production?

    Or just rinse the walls of tank with 100ppm solution of chlorine and after 20 minutes rinse it with clean water and continue production? 
  • @PhilGeis do you have any comments on above question. 
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    No - don't mess with packaging.  
    Objective is to maintain contact on all surfaces through 20 minutes.  Can you use a spray ball?

  • @PhilGeisfor now i don't have such spray ball available. 

    I have this type of hand spray available. Will this work?
    I can spray any part of tank with this because tank is only 200kg size. Not so big.

  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    Keep it wetted.
    Do you have a longer term strategy to lower micro risk?
  • PhilGeis said:
    Keep it wetted.
    Do you have a longer term strategy to lower micro risk?
    If i spray it once properly and then it dries and after 20 minutes i rinse it with water, will it be not effective?

    I don't have any strategy other than cleaning well and after now sanitizing the equipments thanks to you.

    Do you have any suggestions 
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    edited January 28
    Make sure it'd clean 1st and try to not let the sanaitizing solution dry. Repeat spraying enough to keep it wet/damp.
    Long term - as your business grows, consider a plan to implement https://www.fda.gov/cosmetics/cosmetics-guidance-documents/good-manufacturing-practice-gmp-guidelinesinspection-checklist-cosmetics.

  • PhilGeis said:
    Make sure it'd clean 1st and try to not let the sanaitizing solution dry. Repeat spraying enough to keep it wet/damp.
    Long term - as your business grows, consider a plan to implement https://www.fda.gov/cosmetics/cosmetics-guidance-documents/good-manufacturing-practice-gmp-guidelinesinspection-checklist-cosmetics.

    Thanks for the reference. 

    I will keep it wet until fully sanitized.

    By the way, it there any way to bring this 20-30 minutes sanitization time down to 5-10 minutes by increasing the chlorine percentage or that would not be a good idea? 
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    It's not so much the time/kinetics as continued wetness hopefully gets into cracks, crevices etc.  There's no way to know if that's effectively accomplished - I'd stick with longer time.

  • PhilGeis said:
    It's not so much the time/kinetics as continued wetness hopefully gets into cracks, crevices etc.  There's no way to know if that's effectively accomplished - I'd stick with longer time.

    Thanks a lot. 

    This was a big part of manufacturing that i was not performing. 
  • @PhilGeis hello

    A question.

    I make 5kg of 100ppm hypochlorite solution by mixing 10g bleach with 4990g water. After sanitization i recycle and store the remaining solution and use it next time and next time.
    When the quantity left is not enough, i make another 5kg batch and mix it with this recycled one and use it. 

    My questions are

    1. Is there any time limit or recycling limit for this 100ppm hypochlorite solution like for how many days i can store it or how many time i can recycle it after sanitization of equipments? 

    2. Is it ok if i mix new batch with recycled one of 100ppm hypochlorite solution and use it? 
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    Don't store -it's not that stable.
  • PhilGeis said:
    Don't store -it's not that stable.
    Thanks a lot.
  • @PhilGeis hi 

    If i sanitize equipments with isopropyl alcohol or ethanol,

    1. What percentage solution should be used?
    2. When should i sanitize equipments?
    3. How much contact time is needed?

    I asked this because sometimes specially for sanitizing small equipments for making samples 20 minutes sanitization is frustrating. So if alcohols need less time i may use that for samples.
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    You must clean before sanitizing
    70-75%  - prefer ethanol
    before each batching
    let it evaporate - acts in seconds
    cover small items after sanitizing

    it is an explosion hazard so be aware of vapor buildup



  • PhilGeis said:
    You must clean before sanitizing
    70-75%  - prefer ethanol
    before each batching
    let it evaporate - acts in seconds
    cover small items after sanitizing

    it is an explosion hazard so be aware of vapor buildup



    Thanks
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    You need not immerse small pieces .  Spray,  ensuring you hit all surfaces,  and do watch for vapor buildup.
  • @PhilGeis i am spraying again and again everything except the pipes with hypochlorite for 20 minutes.
    The problem in that with small sample size was waiting 20 minutes every day for 100-500g sample that would be prepared in 5 minutes was frustrating. 
    Also since you said don't store the 100ppm hypochlorite solution, preparing small amount each time was also a pain.

    I will try spraying small equipments for sample with alcohol.

    can you explain what is this vapor pressure?
    What causes it? 
    And how to prevent it?

    I will say during sanitization every equipment is open and not closed the way that gas can't come out of it. 
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    20 minutes is not necessary with alcohol.  Just spray and allow to evaporate.  You can't use it for large or closed vessels  and piping or tubing.

    You can't control the vapor pressure and you want the alcohol to evaporate.  Just want enough ventilation.
  • PhilGeis said:
    20 minutes is not necessary with alcohol.  Just spray and allow to evaporate.  You can't use it for large or closed vessels  and piping or tubing.

    You can't control the vapor pressure and you want the alcohol to evaporate.  Just want enough ventilation.
    I got your point. 
    Thanks
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    edited February 13
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    yes
  • @PhilGeis hi 

    Should i sanitize the filling machine too or not necessary? 
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    Yes.  
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