Emulsifying Cleansing Oil with Polyglyceryl-4 Oleate

Hello all,

I'm back again with my latest dilemma. I've been making an emulsifying cleansing oil comprising:

5% Polyglyceryl-4 Oleate
5% Coco glucoside
70% caprylic capric triglyceride
20% sweet almond oil

I'm just not sure if I'm entirely happy with the results. I think it can be improved. Yes, it removes all makeup but it isn't very easy to wash off clean. It does wash off clean in the end, but only after a good rub and wash. How can I get a better (read: easier) clean? Do I increase the coco glucoside inclusion? After all, this is exactly why I included coco glucoside in the first place.

I made another version with 7% Polyglyceryl-4 Oleate and 7% Coco glucoside and it felt the same more or less.

Has anybody worked with these ingredients in a similar product? What are your thoughts?


Comments

  • I would think whats making it challenging to wash off is the self-emulsifying aspect of the formula no? Maybe you need to change Polyglyceryl-4 Oleate to something else? Coco glucoside won't be 100% active material and will contain water. Maybe when its being rinsed off there is no emulsification of the added water with the oils in formula allowing for easy removal of the oils.


    Jonah Ray | Owner & Founder

    build (skincare) | buildskincare.ca


  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    edited February 2019
    @MaisR, I know exactly why you don't like it! Made that mistake ones and learned my lesson. Polyglyceryl-4 Oleate is low HLB emulsifier. When you mix it with water it forms water in oil emulsion on your face. Water in oil emulsions are "water resistant", so you struggle to wash it off! There is a very easy solution to this problem, add high HLB emulsifier such as Polysorbate 20, Polysorbate 80 or PEG-40 HCO.
  • This one works. Apply the same logic (You don't really need a surfactant there)


    INCI
    %
    Mineral Oil 65.00%
    Isopropyl Myrystate 20.00%
    PEG-40 HCO 10.00%
    Sorbitan Oleate 5.00%
     
  • Check out this thread where @ngarayeva001 cleverly mentioned that makeup is quite waterproof, thus water based formulations won't (usually) remove makeup very well.
    https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/5553/how-to-make-a-cleanser-with-decyl-glucoside-better-at-removing-makeup
  • Thank you Gunther :)
    There is also a surfactant designed specifically for making cleansing oils  PEG-20 GLYCERYL TRIISOSTEARATE (Cithrol™ 10GTIS by croda). But I haven’t find my way around it yet.
  • ozgirlozgirl Member, PCF student
    Olivem 300 (Olive Oil PEG-7 Esters) is also recommended for bath oils and cleansing oils and helps to boost rinse off. I haven't tried it but it might be worth investigating.

  • @JonahRay, thank you for your input. Polyglyceryl 4 oleate is meant to be used as an emulsifier in up to 100% oil systems so I don't think that is the problem here. I do, however, think that the coco glucoside is part of the problem (or at least it's not making things any better). 
  • @ngarayeva001, thank you very much for your input. I was researching into the problem with my cleansing oil and did read that I may need to combine Polyglyceryl 4 oleate with a high HLB emulsifier. This then confused me further because my understanding was that for PEG-free emulsifiers calculating the HLB isn't necessary. I would like to keep my formulation PEG-free and as naturally derived as possible. Is HLB calculation used for naturally derived emulsifiers? I just tend to see what type of emulsifier it is: o/w or w/o and take it from there.

    I know that the HLB of polyglyceryl 4 oleate is around 5 so your suggestion is I combine it with a high HLB emulsifier? The issue is I don't know of any naturally derived emulsifiers with a high HLB.

    Thank you for your suggestions. I thought my little post had been forgotten about!




  • @Gunther, thank you for directing me to this post. I had in fact already read it and agree entirely that water based cleansers do not work on makeup removal. That's why I'm so keen on perfecting my oil based cleanser. I only use oil based cleansers or balms to remove my makeup (because they are so efficient at it!)

    Thanks once again.
  • @ozgirl, thank you for your suggestion to use Olivem 300. However, in this instance I want to keep my formulation PEG free. 

    Just today I was looking at some of the other emulsifiers HallStar has to offer in hopes I could find something that would help me with my oil based cleanser. I'm still not sure though!


  • @MaisR Aldivia makes some polyglyceryl esters in their Viatenza line that might interest you. Example: Sweet Almond Oil Polyglyceryl-6 Esters.


    Jonah Ray | Owner & Founder

    build (skincare) | buildskincare.ca


  • MaisRMaisR Member
    @JonahRay, thank you for the suggestion. I will look into it.


  • SalSal Member
    Hi. I would like to mention that im having the same problem with cleanser not coming off due to becoming thick creamy texture when mixed with water. However, ive seen a well known organic formulator making it exactly the same way im making it using the same recipe. Also i know some great oil cleansers already in market with same formulations of 15%polyglycerl-4oleate and remaining oils. Now i need to know why im having issues even though the formulation isnt an issue???

    Please note im talking about 100% oil based formulation with 15% polyglyceral 4 olate , grapseed oils, coconut oils and vit E

  • @sal you can also look into Cromollient SCE by Croda. 
  • Sal said:
    Hi. I would like to mention that im having the same problem with cleanser not coming off due to becoming thick creamy texture when mixed with water. However, ive seen a well known organic formulator making it exactly the same way im making it using the same recipe. Also i know some great oil cleansers already in market with same formulations of 15%polyglycerl-4oleate and remaining oils. Now i need to know why im having issues even though the formulation isnt an issue???

    Please note im talking about 100% oil based formulation with 15% polyglyceral 4 olate , grapseed oils, coconut oils and vit E

    @Sal - Are you sure they performing well?

    If you want to go natural(???). - Polyglyceryl-10 Dioleate, Polyglyceryl-2 Sesquicaprylate combo like Tatcha might be a better ref. 
  • @Pattsi It doesn't matter if your recipe is from someone famous. I think this formula performs badly, sticky, terribly difficult to remove. On the hands, it may seem easy to remove. But if you try on applying on the face, adding water will emulsify the oils and it's similar to the experience of trying to scrub off some grease from your kitchen hood. It's better off justing using oils to remove makeup using a cotton wool, followed by a face wash to clean off the oils.
  • @sal you can also look into Cromollient SCE by Croda. 
    This is what I use and it works beautifully for my self-emulsifying oil cleanser(s).
  • @Emotelle - We have our own formula (not recipe), I just mentioned some brand, performance or experience ... etc. is to your liking or not, you have to work on the formula that you decide it is the best.
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