I have come full circle....Xanthan and Sclerotium gum and Siligel.

GraillotionGraillotion Member
edited September 2021 in Formulating
Just a few short years ago...I was formulating with E-Wax and Xanthan gum.  Then moved on to the Montanov's, 165 and Glyceryl stearate citrate, pairing them with polymerics like Aristoflex AVC, EMT 10 and Zen.  
In my latest rounds of product development...(mostly out of necessity) I have really come to appreciate Urea, Sodium lactate, Sodium PCA and other things that don't like the polymerics.  Which brings me full circle, back to the gums.

So I will not be asking the typical gum questions...I am fully aware of what X-gum brings to the table...and the negatives that go along with overdoing it.  For the sake of this conversation....I will probably be using the gums at a range of .2 to .25%.  (Before I dropped the X-gum, I had moved up to X-Gum Soft, so that is what I still have on hand.)

So A tiny bit more background.  The most common backbone I use now is 165 + Glyceryl stearate citrate (and of course some behenyl alcohol) and probably some kind of gum combination.  So I was discussing Siligel with @Pharma the other day, and he suggested for simplicity, texture and cost to just blend Xanthan and Sclerotium.  So I have a multi-pronged question.  Please answer any aspects you feel you can contribute in.  Hopefully I am not asking the traditional textural gum questions...but am more interested in the technical structuring of the options.

I will also mention that I am aware that X-Gum is not suitable for cationic emulsions and Sclerotium is.  I only say this because I have one project that uses Varisoft EQ 65.  

So a cursory glance around the web leads me to believe that on the molecular level, the two gums work very differently.  Here is a blurb I got for Sclerotium...granted I think this was google translated from Chinese  :) :

Sclerotium, has a backbone build up by β-1,3-D-glucopyranosyl units with single β-1,6-D-glucopyranosyl side chains linked to every third residue in the main chain. In aqueous solution, it exhibits a linear, rigid, triple helical structure.

So I have not seen a similar description for X-gum...but I believe there are some marked differences.  I also think X-gum is very susceptible to high shear...which I can sometimes be very guilty of...and S-Gum is not supposed to be sensitive to excess or high shear?

So....I am a big fan of the word and concept of 'synergy'.  So the questions are these:
1) Is X-gum and S-gum....a synergy...or redundancy?

2) Can S-gum do everything X-gum can do....and do it all while making a better feeling product?

3) For structuring in stability of an emulsion, will using both create better stability than just using one of them?

4) What does Pullulan bring to the table.... The marketers must know I like the word 'synergy' cause the use it when discussing adding it to the above two gums (in Siligel).

5) So depending on how you answered question 4.... What does lecithin bring to the table (again component of Siligel)?

6) If you were to just blend X-Gum and S-Gum....what ratio would you use?  50/50?

Thank You.

Comments

  • helenhelenhelenhelen Member
    edited September 2021
    I can maybe contribute from a non-chemistry viewpoint as I went through a long phase of using xanthan and sclerotium gum at the beginning of my journey before dropping them as you did.

    I didn't like the "Soft" version of xanthan gum. I tried Cosphaderm X-Soft which is much less stringy/stretchy than Cosphaderm X-34, but for me has an unpleasant waxy/tacky afterfeel that lasts through washes. I've never heard anyone else complain of this though so it could just be me, or the combination of the ingredients I was using at the time.

    1) I definitely preferred xanthan and sclerotium gum together. Xanthan is as you know stringy and contributes to soaping. Adding sclerotium (I used Amigum) helped on both aspects...

    2) ... But sclerotium on its own wasn't great, as it forms too much of a springy blancmange texture and has a firmer, heavier/richer feel with more residue.. it needs xanthan gum to soften those aspects. Xanthan is also meant to provide better stability.

    3) Not sure, but if I remember correctly, SkinChakra felt the combination worked well for stability:

    https://skinchakra.eu/blog/archives/438-What-you-need-to-know-about-natural-gums-part-I.html

    https://skinchakra.eu/blog/archives/443-What-you-need-to-know-about-natural-gums-part-II-Gum-blending.html

    4) Pullulan is film-forming... I think it might be used as a skin-tightening ingredient in some formulations? I didn't like the feel of Ecogel/Siligel due to the pullulan. It also turns slimy on the skin when water touches the skin later, after application.

    5) I think lecithin was included so that users could try to use Ecogel/Siligel as an emulsifier... perhaps more for serums rather than creams. The manufacturer claims lecithin also gives a nice feel.. the "phospholipid touch" or something if I remember correctly. I found Ecogel/Siligel more draggy than a simple xanthan/sclerotium blend.

    6) I found 50:50 a good ratio. More xanthan is stringy and soapy, and more sclerotium is heavier and springy.

    Just to add, I was using the gums for a body cream.. so all these observations were more noticeable as I was slathering samples over large areas of skin. They might not be so noticeable in a face cream that is used a bit more delicately.


  • I didn't like the "Soft" version of xanthan gum.

    1) I definitely preferred xanthan and sclerotium gum together. Xanthan is as you know stringy and contributes to soaping. Adding sclerotium (I used Amigum) helped on both aspects...

    2) ... But sclerotium on its own wasn't great, as it forms too much of a springy blancmange texture and has a firmer, heavier/richer feel with more residue.. it needs xanthan gum to soften those aspects. Xanthan is also meant to provide better stability.



    https://skinchakra.eu/blog/archives/438-What-you-need-to-know-about-natural-gums-part-I.html

    https://skinchakra.eu/blog/archives/443-What-you-need-to-know-about-natural-gums-part-II-Gum-blending.html



    6) I found 50:50 a good ratio. More xanthan is stringy and soapy, and more sclerotium is heavier and springy.


    Great read...and thank you for all that great feedback.  I always enjoy reading your responses. 

    First question...if you don't like X-gum Soft...what version did you like...just straight up X-gum....or clear?

    Thank you for the Skinchakra links...very good reads....HOWEVER... now I will have to try Solagum AX! 

    That and I will of course have to ask the question...If Acacia and sclerotium both enhance the feel of X-gum.... What would happen if you combined Acacia and sclerotium?  :D   


  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    edited September 2021
    1. Xanthan gum is synergy with everything but i like its synergy with acacia gum the most.
    2. I haven't used carbomer but have used many gums and celluloses. I have concluded for myself that xanthan gum is a must. No other gum can replace it for stability but blending them with xanthan gum can enhances it's characteristics.
    3. I think no if you reduce the xanthan gum. Yes if you add it on top of xanthan gum. 
    6. I would use no less than 0.3% xanthan gum and 0.2% or 0.3 %  s gum although i prefer acacia gum. 
  • helenhelenhelenhelen Member
    edited September 2021

     Great read...and thank you for all that great feedback.  I always enjoy reading your responses. 

    First question...if you don't like X-gum Soft...what version did you like...just straight up X-gum....or clear?

    Thank you for the Skinchakra links...very good reads....HOWEVER... now I will have to try Solagum AX!

    That and I will of course have to ask the question...If Acacia and sclerotium both enhance the feel of X-gum.... What would happen if you combined Acacia and sclerotium?  :D   

    No problem - I always enjoy seeing your threads and everyone's responses to them!

    I used Cosphaderm X-34 which is marketed as a premium clear xanthan. I remember there was actually a difference between Cosphaderm X-34 and the generic "xanthan clear/transparent" I tried... it seemed more refined and less smelly and even less coloured.

    @Cst4Ms4Tmps4 used to say Jungbunzlauer xanthan gums were the best.. he is based in Asia. In this PDF (also attached), you can see how many grades of xanthan gum can be available... which I think in general you can map to Cosphaderm xanthans.. e.g. I would guess Cosphaderm X-34 is "XG FFCS-PC" or "XG FEDCS-PC" (agglomerated) and Cosphaderm X-Soft is "XG FFCSP-PC". Not very catchy names!

    https://www.jungbunzlauer.com/fileadmin/content/_PDF/PRINT_PROJECTS/Flyer/JBL_FL_Rheology_control_for_personal_care_products_2013_V1.pdf

    I was also interested in acacia gum and Solagum AX but never tried it in the end as I was put off by the reports of acacia being quite a common allergy.
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    It was a pleasure to read through this thread :smile: !

    A small note on synergies: Xanthan shows synergism with several galacto-mannans (a frequently found type of non-ionic gums) such as (in decreasing order of synergism) locust bean gum aka carob gum > guar gum > tara gum ~ konjak.

    Regarding Acacia gum aka gum Arabic: We used to use that and Tragacanth in different pharmaceutical preparations. I never really liked their feel... however, I've never tried either of the two at lower % in cosmetic preparations. I think I still have some native ones somewhere in my collection. I guess I now have to reincarnate at least the Acacia gum (if I can find it). One of its main constituents are arabinogalactan proteins which show a unique emulsion stabilising effect related to Pickering emulsions or hydrophobically modified polyacrylates.
  • I can maybe contribute from a non-chemistry viewpoint as I went through a long phase of using xanthan and sclerotium gum at the beginning of my journey before dropping them as you did.

    I didn't like the "Soft" version of xanthan gum. I tried Cosphaderm X-Soft which is much less stringy/stretchy than Cosphaderm X-34, but for me has an unpleasant waxy/tacky afterfeel that lasts through washes. I've never heard anyone else complain of this though so it could just be me, or the combination of the ingredients I was using at the time.
    I am curious how exactly did you find that the unpleasant feeling is caused by the the Xanthan gum? The Xanthan gum is used in practically almost every cosmetic emulsion, but they all are so different by their haptical properies. So if you feel all of that unpleasant effects, maybe the reason is somewhere else.
    Also, we are talking about Glyceryl stearate peg-100 stearate and Glyceryl stearate citrate which are far away from the imagine of an emulsifiers, which give haptically pleasant emulsions.
    This forum constantly disappoints me, especially with that kind of inadequate threads.

  • helenhelenhelenhelen Member
    edited September 2021
    ggpetrov said:
    I can maybe contribute from a non-chemistry viewpoint as I went through a long phase of using xanthan and sclerotium gum at the beginning of my journey before dropping them as you did.

    I didn't like the "Soft" version of xanthan gum. I tried Cosphaderm X-Soft which is much less stringy/stretchy than Cosphaderm X-34, but for me has an unpleasant waxy/tacky afterfeel that lasts through washes. I've never heard anyone else complain of this though so it could just be me, or the combination of the ingredients I was using at the time.
    I am curious how exactly did you find that the unpleasant feeling is caused by the the Xanthan gum? The Xanthan gum is used in practically almost every cosmetic emulsion, but they all are so different by their haptical properies. So if you feel all of that unpleasant effects, maybe the reason is somewhere else.
    Also, we are talking about Glyceryl stearate peg-100 stearate and Glyceryl stearate citrate which are far away from the imagine of an emulsifiers, which give haptically pleasant emulsions.
    This forum constantly disappoints me, especially with that kind of inadequate threads.

    Gosh, you’re a bit harsh, aren’t you? Not sure why you felt the need for that tone.

    If you really need to know, in several controlled tests where the only thing I changed was the gum from Cosphaderm X-34 to Cosphaderm X-Soft, I got the unpleasant feel from the Cosphaderm X-Soft. Sometimes I felt maybe I’d somehow made a mistake because the Soft version is used without issue by others, but I would get the same result if tested again. Like I said, it could have been an unexpected interaction with some of the ingredients I was using at the time in the base formulations. Also like I said, the afterfeel was unpleasant for “me”.

  • ggpetrov said:

    I am curious how exactly did you find that the unpleasant feeling is caused by the the Xanthan gum? The Xanthan gum is used in practically almost every cosmetic emulsion, but they all are so different by their haptical properies. So if you feel all of that unpleasant effects, maybe the reason is somewhere else.
    Also, we are talking about Glyceryl stearate peg-100 stearate and Glyceryl stearate citrate which are far away from the imagine of an emulsifiers, which give haptically pleasant emulsions.
    This forum constantly disappoints me, especially with that kind of inadequate threads.


    Pharma said:
    It was a pleasure to read through this thread :smile: !


    That was an interesting tone :( .  As Perry would say, 99% of the public won't be able to feel the difference of small nuances that some of us work with.  And I agree.... but the 1% are people also...and should be respected as such.

    Are you saying if you made a formula with .2% X-gum, and .5% X-gum, you would be unable to tell a difference?  I guarantee you...the professional formulas you refer to...had some recent chemistry grad....making graduated versions with many types of gums, at many different inclusion rates, until they found the 'Ah hah moment',

    If this forum disappoints....may I ask which forums you relish?  I would like to visit them as well.  To date, I have found none better than this one.
  • There is some value in comments about theory, but the comments from those who have actually taken the time, and made the effort to test through these tedious combinations it is without equal. For the 1% of people that can feel, and care about the tiny details and nuances, these efforts cannot be found elsewhere.
    The One percenters in life, are the people that make life better for the 99%.  If mediocrity rules the day, we can all get our cosmetics at WalMart.  I am simply not happy with that option.  I do NOT believe that all the synergies have been discovered, and that better things are yet to be created.  I think creativity comes from smaller brands where we are not hamstrung with existing formulas, and sku's that are on the shelf.  Creativity comes from the sharing of ideas that can be implemented onto a clean sheet of paper....No industry bias allowed.
    Sounds like you had a bad day, so hope tomorrow is better for you.
  • There is some value in comments about theory, but the comments from those who have actually taken the time, and made the effort to test through these tedious combinations it is without equal. For the 1% of people that can feel, and care about the tiny details and nuances, these efforts cannot be found elsewhere.
    The One percenters in life, are the people that make life better for the 99%.  If mediocrity rules the day, we can all get our cosmetics at WalMart.  I am simply not happy with that option.  I do NOT believe that all the synergies have been discovered, and that better things are yet to be created.  I think creativity comes from smaller brands where we are not hamstrung with existing formulas, and sku's that are on the shelf.  Creativity comes from the sharing of ideas that can be implemented onto a clean sheet of paper....No industry bias allowed.
    Sounds like you had a bad day, so hope tomorrow is better for you.
    That was very well put. 💯👍
  • helenhelenhelenhelen Member
    edited October 2021
    There is some value in comments about theory, but the comments from those who have actually taken the time, and made the effort to test through these tedious combinations it is without equal. For the 1% of people that can feel, and care about the tiny details and nuances, these efforts cannot be found elsewhere.
    The One percenters in life, are the people that make life better for the 99%.  If mediocrity rules the day, we can all get our cosmetics at WalMart.  I am simply not happy with that option.  I do NOT believe that all the synergies have been discovered, and that better things are yet to be created.  I think creativity comes from smaller brands where we are not hamstrung with existing formulas, and sku's that are on the shelf.  Creativity comes from the sharing of ideas that can be implemented onto a clean sheet of paper....No industry bias allowed.
    Sounds like you had a bad day, so hope tomorrow is better for you.
     <3 This is why I like seeing your threads and ponderings @Graillotion . You're not one to say "Well if x works, why bothering trying anything else?" or get offended if someone has a negative opinion on something you personally enjoy. If everyone had that mentality, new art, music, literature, and new genres of anything would never be made and enjoyed. I understand that in a corporate space, timelines and budgets add constraints to how much experimentation can be done, but if those constraints are not there, why not try new things out?
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    "those who have actually taken the time, and made the effort to test through these tedious combinations it is without equal." I do NOT believe that all the synergies have been discovered, and that better things are yet to be created.  I think creativity comes from smaller brands where we are not hamstrung with existing formulas, and sku's that are on the shelf.  Creativity comes from the sharing of ideas that can be implemented onto a clean sheet of paper....No industry bias allowed.
    Creativity can come from anyone, anywhere, anytime ... you just have to have the curiosity to actually experiment.  The easiest thing is for someone to tell you "No" that won't work, when they have not actually tried it and that is very common in life.  It's the people who are seeking that one "Yes" who make the breakthrough discoveries.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals & Clean Beauty arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program/Clean At Sephora/Credo Clean guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • Pharma said:
    It was a pleasure to read through this thread :smile: !



    Regarding Acacia gum aka gum Arabic: We used to use that and Tragacanth in different pharmaceutical preparations. I never really liked their feel... however, I've never tried either of the two at lower % in cosmetic preparations. I think I still have some native ones somewhere in my collection. I guess I now have to reincarnate at least the Acacia gum (if I can find it). One of its main constituents are arabinogalactan proteins which show a unique emulsion stabilising effect related to Pickering emulsions or hydrophobically modified polyacrylates.
    I just watched a video (re-packer video at mommy blogger level) showing the different gums in water at 1%.  The Acacia that they used....essentially added NO viscosity.  Have you found this to be the case?  So if that is the case....then Acacia's place is simply as an emulsion stabilizer...and not so much about texture and viscosity?  And they did mention (without explanation) that it did help to stabilize or solubilize the oil phase as I recall.
  • Re. X-gum + Sclerotium synergy and Siligel/Ecogel 

    VeGelPlus (Xanthan Gum (and) Lecithin (and) Sclerotium Gum (and) Carrageenan (and) Silica) by KimiKa has the gum synergy blend suggested above, and has a phospholipid (I do very much like the skinfeel of phospholipids). Not a chemist, so I'm not sure how Silica plays with the gums and the phospholipids here  (any thoughts?)

    Has anyone tried this ingredient?

    I wonder if this could be THE synergy. I just came across this ingredient, so I haven't tried it yet, but I will try to get a sample and report back. 



  • Re. X-gum + Sclerotium synergy and Siligel/Ecogel 

    VeGelPlus (Xanthan Gum (and) Lecithin (and) Sclerotium Gum (and) Carrageenan (and) Silica) by KimiKa has the gum synergy blend suggested above, and has a phospholipid (I do very much like the skinfeel of phospholipids). Not a chemist, so I'm not sure how Silica plays with the gums and the phospholipids here  (any thoughts?)

    Has anyone tried this ingredient?

    I wonder if this could be THE synergy. I just came across this ingredient, so I haven't tried it yet, but I will try to get a sample and report back. 



    Pretty sure the silica in there...as the last ingredient....is more of an anti-caking mechanism (nothing you could ever hope to feel).

    I use numerous similar texturizers (silica) with gums...and they play fine together.  I should say my gum group never exceeds .25%.  My silica like texturizers are often around 1.5%.

    Aloha
Sign In or Register to comment.