Facial moisturiser basics

Mel55Mel55 Member
Hello,
I have a face cream I make for personal use.  I'm quite happy with it but I have learned from this forum that it is easy to include ingredients that are not useful or that are overkill.  I wondered if I could get some feedback on this formula generally, and whether any of the ingredients are redundant.

Distilled water - 66

Sodium lactate - 2

Allantoin - 0.5

Hydrolised wheat protein - 2

Polyquat 7 - 2

Avocado oil - 15

BTMS - 4

Dimethicone 350 - 2

Cetyl alcohol - 2

Preservative - 0.5

Panthenol - 2

Chamomile extract - 1

Vitamin E - 1           



Thanks,

Mel.

Comments

  • Hello!
    Here's a few things I've learned from researching, experimenting, and from my time on this forum:

    1) Allantoin is soluble up to .5% of your water phase. So, if your water phase is 66%, the amount of Allantoin you should use would be up to .33%  not .5% .. @Graillotion gave me the rundown on the basics of Allantoin solubility (and is a wealth of information as well 😊)

    2) Avocado Oil at 15% seems pretty high but perhaps that is just a matter of preference 

    3) Most of the chemists on this forum would probably say that the Panthenol isn't doing anything in your formula....and may say the same thing about the Chamomile Extract...and the hydrolyzed wheat protein as well...🤷‍♀️

    4) You should really use a chelator....

    Other than that I think your formula looks fine...have you tried using it as a conditioner...? It looks like it could also be used as one. Hope any of this helps! 


  • It looks like a conditioner formulation. Though strangely some people also use BTMS for normal skin formulations, example the Cerave brand. A chelating agent may not be suitable for this case due to the BTMS. 
  • Allantoin is also soluble in surfactants. I am using it in lotion @ %0.5 without any problem. For system that doesn't have surfactant and the solubility would be less than %0.5.
  • @jemolian what about the BTMS would make a chelator not suitable for this formulation? I have seen many formulas using both BTMS and a chelator such as sodium phytate...

    @Abdullah yes, that is true. I've read it also becomes more soluble with heat,  however I have also read a lot of conflicting information about this, even from reseller websites. I choose to heat mine with my aqueous phase until 176°F and then emulsify with my oil phase. A lot of websites suggest adding it with the cool down ingredients but I've since learned, and choose to believe, to not go this route. 😉
  • @abierose it will depend on the charge, so the anionic chelating agents won't do. I'm not sure what charge sodium phytate is, but if it's anionic but used in a small percentage, perhaps it would still be fine. 
  • jemolian said:
    @abierose it will depend on the charge, so the anionic chelating agents won't do. I'm not sure what charge sodium phytate is, but if it's anionic but used in a small percentage, perhaps it would still be fine. 
    Ah, I see. That makes sense. Thank you for taking the time to explain that to me! 😊
  • @jemolian sodium phytate is not compatible with cationic surfactants. 

    Do you know any chelating agent other than caprylhydroxamic acid which is not anionic?
  • @Abdullah i'm not too certain. I've not really looked into that yet. 

  • @Abdullah if it isn't compatible, why are there so many formulations using these ingredients together? Here's a few I found via a Google search:





    https://goop.com/ursa-major-let-s-go-shower-kit/p/

    If they are incompatible, would using them together create any negative and perceivable issues? Or would using them together make the sodium phytate not work as a chelator? I have tried to find definitive information on whether or not they are incompatible 🤷‍♀️
  • @abierose i don't know how they are doing it. 
    When I use chelating agents even citric acid with cationic surfactants they form insoluble salt. That effects the finall feeling of product. Surfactant also doesn't work properly and maybe chelating agent too. 


  • abierose said:
    @Abdullah if it isn't compatible, why are there so many formulations using these ingredients together? Here's a few I found via a Google search:





    https://goop.com/ursa-major-let-s-go-shower-kit/p/

    If they are incompatible, would using them together create any negative and perceivable issues? Or would using them together make the sodium phytate not work as a chelator? I have tried to find definitive information on whether or not they are incompatible 🤷‍♀️
    You are assuming these brands know what they are doing.

    And maybe they do know what they are doing, but are playing coy.... They know some astute shoppers will want to see a chelator on the label....so they add one at .00001% to satisfy that group.  Or....and more probable....clueless.   One cannot assume these companies all have access to the likes of pharma in their formulating room.

    Per an earlier thread of mine....some of the great minds on the site suggested that GLDA be used (best choice of the bad choices) with cationics.  Even it has some conflict, so it was recommend at a much lower rate.  I use it at half the typical rate in my latest cream.  

    Oh...and it was suggested that sodium phytate was about the worst choice in a cationic situation.
  • abierose said:
    @Abdullah if it isn't compatible, why are there so many formulations using these ingredients together? Here's a few I found via a Google search:





    https://goop.com/ursa-major-let-s-go-shower-kit/p/

    If they are incompatible, would using them together create any negative and perceivable issues? Or would using them together make the sodium phytate not work as a chelator? I have tried to find definitive information on whether or not they are incompatible 🤷‍♀️
    You are assuming these brands know what they are doing.

    And maybe they do know what they are doing, but are playing coy.... They know some astute shoppers will want to see a chelator on the label....so they add one at .00001% to satisfy that group.  Or....and more probable....clueless.   One cannot assume these companies all have access to the likes of pharma in their formulating room.

    Per an earlier thread of mine....some of the great minds on the site suggested that GLDA be used (best choice of the bad choices) with cationics.  Even it has some conflict, so it was recommend at a much lower rate.  I use it at half the typical rate in my latest cream.  

    Oh...and it was suggested that sodium phytate was about the worst choice in a cationic situation.
    Assuming what you suggested is true, and brands like Goop are clueless, I would think that it would eventually come down to a functionality and stability of the product and if the chelator they chose is incompatible and therefore ineffective, it would at some point come up. Personally I am NOT a fan of Goop or their products. At all. 😊

    This is just one of those topics that peak my interest because of the differing opinions of multiple very smart people on this forum. That, and the fact I like to know, for sure, what is and what isn't really true, so that not only do I know for my own formulating agenda, but also so I don't spread any misinformation....you know how I am @Graillotion...I need definitive answers to be satisfied! 😁
  • Speaking of @Pharma, what are your thoughts on this topic?
  • GraillotionGraillotion Member
    edited July 2021
    abierose said:
    Speaking of @Pharma, what are your thoughts on this topic?
    If you want to see his thoughts....scroll through this thread. :) 

    What to avoid when using cationic emulsifiers..... — Cosmetic Science Talk (chemistscorner.com)

    We have just recently dealt with this issue...and you have the end result....in hand! :) 

    And....cosmetic companies are generally started by dreamers and marketers....and far more rarely....by chemist! :)   So always weigh the facts.



  • abierose said:
    @Abdullah if it isn't compatible, why are there so many formulations using these ingredients together? Here's a few I found via a Google search:





    https://goop.com/ursa-major-let-s-go-shower-kit/p/

    If they are incompatible, would using them together create any negative and perceivable issues? Or would using them together make the sodium phytate not work as a chelator? I have tried to find definitive information on whether or not they are incompatible 🤷‍♀️
    You are assuming these brands know what they are doing.

    And maybe they do know what they are doing, but are playing coy.... They know some astute shoppers will want to see a chelator on the label....so they add one at .00001% to satisfy that group.  Or....and more probable....clueless.   One cannot assume these companies all have access to the likes of pharma in their formulating room.

    Per an earlier thread of mine....some of the great minds on the site suggested that GLDA be used (best choice of the bad choices) with cationics.  Even it has some conflict, so it was recommend at a much lower rate.  I use it at half the typical rate in my latest cream.  

    Oh...and it was suggested that sodium phytate was about the worst choice in a cationic situation.
    Yes. 3 thing can be. 
    1. They know these are incomparable. They make a product that has some good performance. They include very tiny amount %0.0001 or less of these incomparable ingredient just to add the name on label to mislead the companies that like their product and try to make the same thing. 
    2. They don't know they are incomparable. In order to see an incompatibility between two ingredients you have to use just those two and see what happens when they are in liquid form.most don't waste the raw material by checking compatibility of each 2 ingredients like This. If you use BTMS with a chelating agent you won't notice the incompatibility because it has fatty alcohol and directly increase the viscosity. So you would not see how the surfactant reacts with chelating agent. You wouldn't know if the chelating agent is working or not. You wouldn't know if all of surfactant is working or some of them has been inactivated. But if you use a standalone surfactant like SPDMA, you can see that it completely dissolve in water but if there is chelating agent in water they form insoluble salt on top of the water that can not be dissolved in water. That is how you know something is not working.
    3. They know how to use these two together and other companies and chemists don't know. 
  • Mel55Mel55 Member
    Thanks everyone for your comments.

    @abierose I will try a batch with reduced avocado oil and allantoin as you suggest. I will also remove the panthenol, hydrolised wheat protein and chamomile. I assume that your comments about these ingredients would extend to other products (for example leave-in hair conditioner)? Having read through this forum I stopped using them in rinse off products. I am really keen on minimal ingredient use. I have never used a chelator (other than citric acid to adjust pH), but I only make small batches and have not had a problem. I don't have a chemistry background so am probably a little naïve in this respect. 

    @jemolian you made me realise how similar this is to my conditioner formula! I use BTMS because I find the other emulsifying wax I have access to results in a greasy product. As I only make things for my own use, I am thinking I can now reduce my product list to a hair/face/body wash and a moisturiser/conditioner/leave-in!

    Thanks again,

    Mel.
  • @Mel55 it's like the skin feel of the emulsifier, you can look into the skin feel description they provide and if any of them fit your needs. Normally the BTMS has a powdery skin feel if i recall correctly? 
     
  • Mel55 said:
    Thanks everyone for your comments.

    @abierose I will try a batch with reduced avocado oil and allantoin as you suggest. I will also remove the panthenol, hydrolised wheat protein and chamomile. I assume that your comments about these ingredients would extend to other products (for example leave-in hair conditioner)? Having read through this forum I stopped using them in rinse off products. I am really keen on minimal ingredient use. I have never used a chelator (other than citric acid to adjust pH), but I only make small batches and have not had a problem. I don't have a chemistry background so am probably a little naïve in this respect. 

    @jemolian you made me realise how similar this is to my conditioner formula! I use BTMS because I find the other emulsifying wax I have access to results in a greasy product. As I only make things for my own use, I am thinking I can now reduce my product list to a hair/face/body wash and a moisturiser/conditioner/leave-in!

    Thanks again,

    Mel.
    If you're only making small batches for yourself, I honestly wouldn't worry about using a chelator but that is just my opinion. If you're making small batches to sell to the public, a chelator is appropriate. Also, the ingredients that are useless or unnecessary in your rinse-off formulas could actually be useful in a leave-on product 😊 
    As far as emulsifiers, there are SO MANY available, all with their own characteristics and feel...I was so happy when I ventured away from BTMS and experimented with different options 🙂
  • As @abierose said chelating agent doesn't look necessary because cationic emulsion is less likely to be contaminated by microbes than anionic and non-ionic emulsions. 
    By the way what is your preservative and pH?

    I like how BTMS feels on skin. For moisturization, i suggest remove pg7 and may be protein, panthenol and extract if you don't know the details of your extract. Increase sodium lactate to %5, Reduce avocado oil to %5-10 and add % 10-20 glycerin. 
  • Mel55Mel55 Member
    Thank you @Abdullah @abierose and @jemolian

    The pH is 6.0 and I use liquid germall plus. I do like the less greasy feel of BTMS on my skin. I'll try a batch using your suggestions. Thanks again.
  • PattsiPattsi Member
    I made a habit of myself not skipping chelator and preservative when I diy because sometimes I give out my diy sample to friends and families so I don't want it to turn bad in their hands.

    I have never used BTMS so don't really know about the skin feel.
    I personally don't like Polyquat 7 in skincare.
    Hydrolised wheat protein - Meh
    Panthenol - Meh
    I find 15% natural oil too greasy for my taste, I normally use 2-3 and some light ester 5-8.
    I like Chamomile extract, not for skin benefit but for its smell when blend it with some sweet fragrance, it is quite soothing. 

    Since you have conditioner formula so I assume you have dimethicone 60,000 , you might want to try 350/60,000 - 1.8/0.2 and see if you like it or not, I like it.

    @abierose - even tho goop is weird, I personally find their cosmetics product well formulated.
  • Mel55Mel55 Member
    Thanks @Pattsi, this is very helpful.
  • Pattsi said:

     

    Since you have conditioner formula so I assume you have dimethicone 60,000 , you might want to try 350/60,000 - 1.8/0.2 and see if you like it or not, I like it.


    I have never worked with D 60,000.  Are you saying that adding a dab (.02%) of this CST has some amazing feel/effect?

    I only keep 350cst on hand.

    But always open for some new powdered unicorn horn dust! :) 

     
  • PattsiPattsi Member
    Not very much amazingly different compare to 350 cst alone.
    I would say it feel a bit softer and bouncier on application but not the velvety feeling of elastomer.
    It's only my diy playing not a professional formulae, I just try adding some different silicone like hair conditioner. 
  • One thing you have to keep in mind when formulating for a face moisturizer is whether you're going to apply anything else after that, like makeup or a sunscreen. If you are, then you can be as picky as you'd like for the emollients, especially if your skin is on the oily side.
    Avocado oil is shiny, so it will leave a moderate-to-high amount of shine on the skin... it may be okay for you, but if you're wondering why your face is so shiny, it would be that.
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