New Emulsifier or need for thickeners - help!!
Cinema
Member
in Formulating
I am new to the forum and an amateur formulator - however have been reading and learning and experimenting for the past 9 months now. My forte is naturally derived ( as much as possible) and herbal formulations, So I wanted to try to make a pourable/ pumpable lotion and for the same- tried out Cream maker fluid ( Inci name - Sorbitan laurate, polyglyceryl-4 laurate, dilauryl citrate ) for the same.
Basic formulation
OIls ( coconut, babassu, MCT and apricot kernel)- 12%
Aloe gel- 5%
DW- 72%
Glycerin -3 %
Cetyl alcohol- 0.5
Cream maker fluid- 3.5%
Vtamin E - 1%
Essential oils- 2%
Optiphen plus- 1%
But my emulsion -although came together but separated quickly. The formulation guide is to use 1.5-2.5% cream maker fluid - but I used more than that. Then I added HEC at 0.5, increased cetyl alcohol to 2% and Cream maker fluid to 6%- and of course adjust water accordingly. The rsults still the same but my lotion now had stringy texture ( thanks to HEC) and waxy feel ( large amount of emulsifier I guess).
I guess I do need a natural polymer if possible like konjac or alginate for my water phase and an oil thickener too- like some out there are sapogel, sucragel, dermofeel viscolid or bio Jelly- all new to me.
Thoughts from you experts ? And experiences with Cream maker fluid?
Basic formulation
OIls ( coconut, babassu, MCT and apricot kernel)- 12%
Aloe gel- 5%
DW- 72%
Glycerin -3 %
Cetyl alcohol- 0.5
Cream maker fluid- 3.5%
Vtamin E - 1%
Essential oils- 2%
Optiphen plus- 1%
But my emulsion -although came together but separated quickly. The formulation guide is to use 1.5-2.5% cream maker fluid - but I used more than that. Then I added HEC at 0.5, increased cetyl alcohol to 2% and Cream maker fluid to 6%- and of course adjust water accordingly. The rsults still the same but my lotion now had stringy texture ( thanks to HEC) and waxy feel ( large amount of emulsifier I guess).
I guess I do need a natural polymer if possible like konjac or alginate for my water phase and an oil thickener too- like some out there are sapogel, sucragel, dermofeel viscolid or bio Jelly- all new to me.
Thoughts from you experts ? And experiences with Cream maker fluid?
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could you maybe share a method? I have no experience with this one, but looking at a sample recipe from MakingCosmetics, they used 4% for 12% lipid and also thickener 3%. I don't think HEC is giving a stringy texture (especially at 0.5%), or at least I don't recall it from my experiments with it.
Also one more thing, in my opinion, the Essential oils input is too high. If it's a body lotion, stick to 1.5% maximum, for face 0.5%. Also check regulatory limits for individual oils.
Are you set on the above listed emulsifier? There are some very proven ones available to you. The one pasted below....is essentially bullet proof, and Widely used:
CreamMaker® BLEND-EMF-EMBL-01 (makingcosmetics.com)
And yes...the EO's will scent the product at .5%, unless you were trying to make a mosquito repellent.
Have you looked at Montanov L or 202? (I think meets the natural standard you are looking for. Should be co-emulsified with GSC.)
Maybe take a look at this:
https://ifrafragrance.org/safe-use/introduction#.WVKbToqQymU
Some EO's are NOT well tolerated on skin.
Glyceryl Stearate Citrate-EMF-GLYCSTEACIT-01 (makingcosmetics.com)
It is an anionic emulsifier that really helps the Montanov's. Do not believe the mfg claims about being stable on their own....they all say that...and usually this is not a reality. (As I can attest.)
I think LC has if for a lot less.
But I think easier to make thinner products with L....as it does not thicken as well as 202.
Thanks for the info. Done and done- will try it for sure.
Tagging a few of the chemists on this forum to see if anyone has used Cream maker fluid before and has any suggestions? @Perry @Bobzchemist
aloe gel- I did not see anything bad in the ingredients- is there usually something bad in these?
If it is the one I found on the net....it is loaded with crap...including cationic ingredients...which would cause some incompatabilities.
Make the formula without the Aloe gel...and I think all problems will .... POOF!
https://www.makeyourown.buzz/aloe-vera-leaf-powder-100x/
Aloe brings numerous problems to formulating....find another claim ingredient.
Look at the product you were using....Aloe juice was the first ingredient...then thickeners.
Also @ Pattsi- thanks I just realized Tego Care LTP is the other name for the Cream maker fluid- and I guess I am getting close to thinking the aloe might be the problem
In this case...you did the double whammy...with adding a cationic solution and a strong electrolyte.
Lose the Aloe gel...You tried adding a finished formula...to your formula....usually not a good mix.
Even if you choose to use aloe powder....you might need to choose an emulsifier that plays well with electrolytes.
• In cold processed formulations TEGO® Care LTP should be combined with polymeric stabilizers/thickeners in order to adjust the viscosity and the stability profile of the emulsions. For body lotions combinations of 0.1 – 0.3 % TEGO® Carbomer 141 or
TEGO® Carbomer 140 with Xanthan Gum proved to be most effective. For the preparation of sprayable emulsions, a combination of TEGO® Carbomer 141 and TEGO® Carbomer 341 ER (Acrylates/C10-30 Alkyl Acrylates Crosspolymer) proved to be most effective.
• In hot processed creams TEGO® Care LTP is preferably combined with consistency enhancers such as
TEGIN® M Pellets (Glyceryl Stearate) and TEGO® Alkanol 18 (Stearyl Alcohol). Addition of small amounts of TEGO® Carbomer 134 (0.1 – 0.2 %) results in an improved freeze stability and in improved maintenance of the cream-like consistency at temperatures above 40°C.
Bottom line...you thicken the finished product...not the individual ingredients. Aloe gel...is only pre-thickened aloe juice.
- Easy-to-handle liquid emulsifier for making cold emulsions without the need of a co-emulsifier
The two paragraphs above....are from the mfg...stating very boldly, for anyone wanting to read it.... NOT STABLE ALL BY ITSELF. (my paraphrase) (LMAO)The less you believe in the product descriptions the re-packers use....the better formulator you will become. Their only goal...is to sell you something (and sometimes...to sell you the fixes...once they have you on the hook). Search any INCI on any reputable cream/lotion...and you will always see the stabilizers, and co-emulsifiers, no matter what emulsifier they started with. Even the 'bullet proof' one I recommended at the beginning of the thread....we typically will support it.
@Pattsi
@nagarayeva001
Had to update you all. Made a fresh batch today after eliminating aloe vera and success- still a little thick but pourable- and has been stable for 4 hours- looks good and will likely remain good. Thank you all for the help!!
some basic free formulations
Light O/W Collagen Boosting Lotion Cold Processing
Cold Processed PEG-Free O/W Lotion (Without Homogenisation)
Maybe you can try 1.5 + lil natural gum/thickener you like if it's can emulsify and reach your desired viscosity.
HOWEVER... I have long ago realized... If you can not find it at your re-packers....what is the point of getting the sample??? Let's say you love it....then how are you going to get it??? And you will be left with a feeling of....Oh my product could have been sooooo good, if I just could have included ingredient X.
Maybe state what product you wanted to sample...and we can tell you what products are similar...that might be available from a re-packer. There is almost always a dupe or sub out there somewhere. Also...the re-packers like to re-name things...and some of us might know who has it...under what name.
I don't know exactl what good this does you if you are highly unlikely to ever purchas MOQ from the manufacturer.
See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
Interesting that you guys answer just at the same time. Funny thing, I actually had a chat today while on a manufacturer's site- the lady was real nice and said that she will check with her manufacturers and see if they would get a sample to an individual. All good, she took my contact info etc and I even offered that I can pay for the sample too....... till she told me the smallest batch of sample they would give out is 25Kgs!!!! Yikes- I said absolutely no!!! Anyways then I asked as to when do they think their product will be in stores- apparently has been tested and all and on their site since 2018= and she said real soon hopefully!! So , that was fun
For ingredients supplier(s) you can ask around in here, there's another option -