Xanthan in shampoo

crillzcrillz Member
in General
Have been playing around with a shampoo but it seems to be separating. I then tried doing a knockout experiment to find the culprit. I would add an ingredient, wait a day, but doing this the product turned out fine.
The only thing I can think of is that maybe I need longer for the xanthan gum to hydrate with the water and surfactants before adding other ingredients. 
How long should it take xanthan gum to fully hydrate with water and surfactants combined.

Water 54%
Sodium Lauroamphoacetate 8%
Decyl Glucoside 7.5%
Cocamidopropyl betaine 10%
Sodium cocoyl glutamate 8.5%
Glycerin 5.4%
Xanthan gum (keltrol cg) 1%

I put water in first, add surfactants while mixing. Slurry the glycerin and xanthan then add that.

Shea butter 1%
Oil 1%
Lexgard 1%

Fragrance 0.5%
Citric acid 0.5%
Caprylhydroxamic acid 1%
 

Comments

  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    Use more glutamate instead of Glucoside
    Remove Glucoside, Glycerin, butter and oil 
    Reduce caprylhydroxamic acid to %0.1 or %0.15

    Xanthan gum hydrates instantly

  • crillzcrillz Member
    Cheers, don't I need a non ionic surfactant tho? In this case it's decyl glucoside. 

    I understand the no oil part.

    I have glycerin to help create the xanthan slurry. Are you suggesting I just put the xanthan in with the water/surfactants by itself?

    And I thought I was just following recommended usage for preservative, is this not required?
    Thanks.
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @Crillz:

    Yes, reduce the Decyl Glucoside to the 2%-3% range.  I would recommend ditching the Xanthan Gum altogether and try thickening this with NaCl.

    If you do retain the Xanthan Gum, you can substantially reduce the amount of Glycerin to 2.5%.

    Actually, I might recommend you use a combination of NaCl and Polyquaternium-10 to thicken this concoction.

    What is "Lexgard 1%" ... there is a whole series of Lexgard products.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Clean Beauty and Naturals arena under Clean At Sephora/Credo Clean Beauty/ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program/NSF.
     
    Highly functional skincare formulations for Indie Beauty Brands, Dermatologists, Estheticians & Beatuy Entrepreneurs.

    See website for details https://desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
    Or read the Blog for my insights on Cosmetic Chemistry & Skincare https://desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com/cosmetic-chemist-skincare-blog/
  • EVchemEVchem Member
    Xanthan does not have great sensorial but if you are going to keep it you can always try adding it before surfactants go in. Sometimes I wonder if the gum doesn't hydrate properly when surfactants are already in the water
  • PaprikPaprik Member
    EVchem said:
    Xanthan does not have great sensorial but if you are going to keep it you can always try adding it before surfactants go in. Sometimes I wonder if the gum doesn't hydrate properly when surfactants are already in the water
    I would not recommend this. XG needs all the available water to hydrate. If you gonna hydrate it only with water from "water phase" and not with the water from surfactants, this can and probably will cause separation. 
  • crillzcrillz Member
    MarkBroussard said:
    @Crillz:

    Yes, reduce the Decyl Glucoside to the 2%-3% range.  I would recommend ditching the Xanthan Gum altogether and try thickening this with NaCl.

    If you do retain the Xanthan Gum, you can substantially reduce the amount of Glycerin to 2.5%.

    Actually, I might recommend you use a combination of NaCl and Polyquaternium-10 to thicken this concoction.

    What is "Lexgard 1%" ... there is a whole series of Lexgard products.
    Lexgard natural. Thanks, will give it a whirl. Presume if I try the polyquat 10 I can't use xanthan gum as  it's cationic and anionic.

  • crillzcrillz Member
    Sorry to bombard with the questions, just trying to find the reason for things. 
    I was trying to follow the course textbook I'm studying where it says to have this percent of product of active ingredient.
    7-10 percent anionic
    3-5 percent non ionic
    3-5 percent amphoteric

    Is the reasoning to have less decyl glucoside (non ionic) because it is harder to thicken or something?
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @crillz:

    Yes, the glucosides are terribly difficult to thicken ... you're including them mostly to enhance the mildness of the surfactant blend.  
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Clean Beauty and Naturals arena under Clean At Sephora/Credo Clean Beauty/ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program/NSF.
     
    Highly functional skincare formulations for Indie Beauty Brands, Dermatologists, Estheticians & Beatuy Entrepreneurs.

    See website for details https://desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
    Or read the Blog for my insights on Cosmetic Chemistry & Skincare https://desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com/cosmetic-chemist-skincare-blog/
  • EVchemEVchem Member
    @Paprik, interesting, that would explain some things... what if some of your water is tied up in low pH actives as well though? There's no concern the surfactants will interfere with the way the gum sets up? I always see supplier formulas add gums and thickeners to water alone
  • AzizAziz Member
    crillz said:
    MarkBroussard said:
    @Crillz:

    Yes, reduce the Decyl Glucoside to the 2%-3% range.  I would recommend ditching the Xanthan Gum altogether and try thickening this with NaCl.

    If you do retain the Xanthan Gum, you can substantially reduce the amount of Glycerin to 2.5%.

    Actually, I might recommend you use a combination of NaCl and Polyquaternium-10 to thicken this concoction.

    What is "Lexgard 1%" ... there is a whole series of Lexgard products.
    Lexgard natural. Thanks, will give it a whirl. Presume if I try the polyquat 10 I can't use xanthan gum as  it's cationic and anionic.

    Why you are not trying HPMC instead of XG as HPMC can give better rheology. 
  • AzizAziz Member
    Abdullah said:
    Use more glutamate instead of Glucoside
    Remove Glucoside, Glycerin, butter and oil 
    Reduce caprylhydroxamic acid to %0.1 or %0.15

    Xanthan gum hydrates instantly .
    Are you sure Xanthan Gum hydrates instantly in water 🤔?
    I don't know , why I have to first mix Xanthan Gum with Glycerin,  wasting an extra step. 

  • crillzcrillz Member
    Aziz said:
    Abdullah said:
    Use more glutamate instead of Glucoside
    Remove Glucoside, Glycerin, butter and oil 
    Reduce caprylhydroxamic acid to %0.1 or %0.15

    Xanthan gum hydrates instantly .
    Are you sure Xanthan Gum hydrates instantly in water 🤔?
    I don't know , why I have to first mix Xanthan Gum with Glycerin,  wasting an extra step. 

    Think it's just an easier and quicker way to hydrate the gum. It's called a slurry method.
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    The reason you pre-hydrate Xanthan Gum in Glycerin (better yet in Propanediol or Pentylene Glycol) to form a slurry is because the solvent coats the Xanthan Gum particles, keeping them separate from one another so they do not agglomerate.  If you add Xanthan directly to water the particles will agglomerate and you'll get unhydrated Xanthan particles in the center of the mass ( called "fisheyes" ).  If you are making an emulsion, no big deal, you're going to homogenize anyway.  But, it you are tyring to make a water-clear Serum, the fisheyes will be visible to the consumer and the product will not appear to be properly formulated.

    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Clean Beauty and Naturals arena under Clean At Sephora/Credo Clean Beauty/ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program/NSF.
     
    Highly functional skincare formulations for Indie Beauty Brands, Dermatologists, Estheticians & Beatuy Entrepreneurs.

    See website for details https://desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
    Or read the Blog for my insights on Cosmetic Chemistry & Skincare https://desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com/cosmetic-chemist-skincare-blog/
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