Micellar water one phase preservative

AndraousAndraous Member
in Formulating
Kindly need your support to choose the best preservative for the micellar water preservative noting that sodium benzoate and potasium sorbate change the color of the formula from clear to yelow and the phenoxyethanol, ethyl glycerin have an irritation effect.
Thanks for your help 

Comments

  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    If formaldehyde releasers isn’t a problem then use germall plus powder. I find it works well in formulations where transparency is important. I can’t comment on whether it will preserve your particular formula and you need to do all necessary tests (it’s a good preservative in general) but it shouldn’t contribute to cloudiness 
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    Irritation effect ? Is this from experience or heresay?  Glycols help but that still at minimum leaves a fungal gap. IPBC is any option - some use PHMB.
  • AndraousAndraous Member
    edited January 2021
    PhilGeis said:
    Irritation effect ? Is this from experience or heresay?  Glycols help but that still at minimum leaves a fungal gap. IPBC is any option - some use PHMB.
    Thank k you Mr. PhilGeis
     PHMB is banned since 2015 because this product is carcinogenic 
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    edited January 2021
    Think EU cosm directive allows 0.1% with stipulation - "Not to be used in applications that may lead to exposure of the end-user's lungs by inhalation."
    Are there other nonpermissive directives? 

  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    Another biguanide -  polyaminopropyl biguanide.
  • AndraousAndraous Member
    Thanks a lot for your help
    I will try PHMB 
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    Try to other biugunaide 1st - polyaminopropyl biguanide.

  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    Drop the pH to 5 and sodium benzoate is perfectly adequate. 
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • Benz3neBenz3ne Member
    Belassi said:
    Drop the pH to 5 and sodium benzoate is perfectly adequate. 
    I agree, plus I'd be surprised if the product was that far off pH 5 anyway.
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    edited January 2021
    Sodium benzoate by itself is not adequate.   A simple check of cosmetic labels (not just for micellar water) shows virtually none using that option.  Pseudomonads eat benzoate.
  • AndraousAndraous Member
    Sodium benzoate and  benzoic acid @1.25%
  • AndraousAndraous Member
    PhilGeis said:
    Try to other biugunaide 1st - polyaminopropyl biguanide.

    I will
  • AndraousAndraous Member
    Benz3ne said:
    Belassi said:
    Drop the pH to 5 and sodium benzoate is perfectly adequate. 
    I agree, plus I'd be surprised if the product was that far off pH 5 anyway.
    PH of make up remover is 4.8 till 5.5
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    PhilGeis said:
    Sodium benzoate by itself is not adequate.   A simple check of cosmetic labels (not just for micellar water) shows virtually none using that option.  Pseudomonads eat benzoate.
    Tell that to Coca or Pepsi Cola. That is the preservative they use.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • justaerinjustaerin Member
    Belassi said:
    PhilGeis said:
    Sodium benzoate by itself is not adequate.   A simple check of cosmetic labels (not just for micellar water) shows virtually none using that option.  Pseudomonads eat benzoate.
    Tell that to Coca or Pepsi Cola. That is the preservative they use.


    But the pH of cola is ~2.5, not 5. I'm guessing that makes a difference, but I don't know.
    Cola facial peels might be the next big thing. Or cola cleansers. Or a post bar soap washing cola hair rinse. The stickiness is just natural humectants!
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    edited January 2021
    Coke cola?  A single-use product in a pressurized, herrmetically-sealed vessel at a prohibitive pH?  Coke is clearly irrelevant.

    Benzoic acid (Na benzoate) as preservative has a substantial Gram negative gap.  One need merely look at COSMETIC products now on the market to see its limited use - and virtually always as a secondary preservative.

    Please - preservation is a serious effort.  Infections from contaminated cosmetics have resulted in blindness and even death.  If you don't know the subject well, please do not offer casual suggestions.
  • AndraousAndraous Member
    I am doing a chalenge test before using any preservative 
  • AndraousAndraous Member
    Andraous said:
    I am doing a chalenge test before using any preservative 
    In a german lab before. To make sure that the prervative is good
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    Andraous said:
    I am doing a chalenge test before using any preservative 
    Why?
  • AndraousAndraous Member
    To. Make sure that the bacteria can't growth inside my formula. 
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    @Andraous I don’t get your point. If bacteria can’t grow in your formula (assuming it’s self preserving) why would you need a preservative?
  • AndraousAndraous Member
    ngarayeva001 said:
    @Andraous I don’t get your point. If bacteria can’t grow in your formula (assuming it’s self preserving) why would you need a preservative?
    I am doing chalange test for the final formula with the preservative. If results is good a cab proceed with it if not it can not be used
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    There is a reason every cosmetic product on the market includes preservatives.  
    Why would you assume your product is uniquely "self-preserving."
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    I encourage folks to design a system that should work (theoretically effective against Gram -/+ and fungi) and then confirm it works vs these in challenge testing both as made and after ageing.  Passing a classic USP 51 (as EP or ISO) is not a guarantee. \ Prrservatives help in manufcturing but are primarily intended (as specified by FDA and EU cosmetic directive) to protect consumers in use and USP is not validated fpr that.
  • AndraousAndraous Member
    PhilGeis said:
    There is a reason every cosmetic product on the market includes preservatives.  
    Why would you assume your product is uniquely "self-preserving."
    You dont understand me. I dont say that
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    Help me understand, please.  I understood your consideration that the product was "self-preserving" - why did you think that possible?  Is there unique chemistry?

    Be aware the preservative test evaluates speed and extent of kill, not growth inhibition.
  • AndraousAndraous Member
    Noooo. 
    I have preservative. But i have problem with it and now changed to E GREEN Leen B
  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    Please let us know how it works .
  • AndraousAndraous Member
    Yes its good no irritation but i need to send a chalange test to make sure that E leen green B(pentylene glycol, sodioum benzoate and benzoic acid) is effective against fungal and microbs. Thanks PhilGeis for your support i appreciate that. 


  • AndraousAndraous Member
    TDS 
  • zeteinzetein Member
    edited January 2021
    Unilever gives their Lynx shower gel sole sodium benzoate:

    And Johnsons:


  • PhilGeisPhilGeis Member, Professional formulator
    edited January 2021
    Thanks zetein - one is in a pump and surfactants as raw materials are often also preserved .  Combination wth sufactants does effectively increase pKa - still, good luck with those.   
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