Carbomer

DavidDavid Member
edited November 2014 in Formulating
Hi,

Has anybody tested the different Carbopol types with the same INCI name "carbomer" against each other?

Do they have different sensory properties?

The supplier talks about pH, electrolytic tolerance, solubility etc but I would like to know if/how  they differ in "feel".




www.cosmeticlabsolutions.com

Comments

  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    They have different sensorials as well as different wetting. For instance I do not like Ultrez in a cream product because it is more jelly-like. 940 works better for that. But for a gel Ultrez works great.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • BobzchemistBobzchemist Member, PCF student
    I've often thought that there would be value in a small evaluation kit with all the Carbopol/carbomer variants in it. They do feel different, although some differences are subtle.

    It's time-consuming to do this thoroughly, though, and you also have to ask your self "do I compare similar viscosities, or similar concentrations?"
    Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
     Bob's idea is pretty good. I suggest, David, that you approach your Lubrizol distributor and ask them for  samples of, say, Carbopol 940, Ultrez-20, and Aqua SF-1 (this last is really for shampoos). I have always found Lubrizol distributors happy to arrange that.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • nasrinsnasrins Member
    @belassi I made a hand cream with 940 I dont know but I felt irritant and I didnt like it.
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    @nasrins: you did neutralise it properly? One of our popular products is a hand cream made with 940. We've been selling it for quite a while.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • nasrinsnasrins Member
    yes ... I dont know :-B
  • AvickAvick Member
    Did you hydrate it in pure H2O first? If not, you may be using too much and it's not getting properly hydrated.
  • nasrinsnasrins Member
    @avick I use 0.2% no I dont hydrate it. I add little by little in 15 minutes with high speed(800rpm)
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    It should be added all at once 20 minutes or more prior to the rest of the ingredients, allowed to completely wet, then dispersed with gentle agitation (typically 200 rpm). It may be helpful to partially neutralise it prior to adding the other ingredients. I recommend sifting it into the water to avoid lumps that can result in "fish eyes".
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • nasrinsnasrins Member
    @belassi I should completly solve it in water ok(without fish eyes)? and then neutrulize ok? , so the way of solving has nothing to do with irritating.
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    Correct. If it doesn't disperse properly and fish-eyes are left, those will be pure (acidic) carbomer and can irritate.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • nasrinsnasrins Member
    Im sure I disperse properly but I feel irritating. maybe because of other ingredients in my hand cream. carbomer compatibility is somewhat complicated!!!!!
  • EliEli Member, PCF student
    There are many types of Carbomers and they change basically in:
    1. Their resistance to salt which is often correlated to the suspending power (for ex, if you want to suspend some beads inside the shampoo you should use Acqua SF-1). Also if the polymer is not resistant to salts at all even if you don't add salt in the final formulation, when you put a drop in your hand it will slip very fast because the electrolytes of the skin will cause this sudden drop of viscosity. Otherwise it will stay longer. 

    2.The range of pH where they work the best. Some pH gives you a great transmittance but lower viscosity and others a good suspending but not so good clarity, so depending on the final pH of the formula you can choose the best carbomer to satisfy those characteristics). Raw materials suppliers always say the range of pH where they work ok, and not all of carbomers have the same. 

    3. The rheology changes a lot if you compare with some other products that are still acrylic acid polymers but hydrophobically modified (-some of them made to satisfy some food claims as budding, butter, jelly-) they are often called carbomers due to its similarities but they develop higher viscosities and rheological behaviors due to their associative power of their extra hydrophobic chains.
  • EliEli Member, PCF student
    i correct - they are not often called carbomers, but we usually put them in the list of carbomers, like acqua-SF1 for example.. 
  • nasrinsnasrins Member
    @eli aqua SF-1 is carbopol, but the polymer for suspending beads is neither carbomer nor carbopol. its poly acrylic acid derivative such as acrylate/stearath20 methacrylate cross polymer
  • AbdullahAbdullah Member
    edited March 2020
    @Belassi what about high shear inline homogenizer with 2800rpm speed for carbomers? 
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