After struggling to find a urea product that is 'safe' for seborrheic dermatitis, I've decided to try and make my own. I want to start simple and then add to it.
Here it is!
Water [69.5-78%]
Caprylic/Capric Triglycerides [15-20%]
Urea [5%]
Polyacrylate Crosspolymer-6 [.5-5% -not sure?]
Xanthan Gum [1% ?]
Germaben II (Propylene Glycol, Diazolidinyl Urea, Methylparaben, Propylparaben) [.5%]
The polyacrylate crosspolymer-6 says: The manufacturer advises up to 25% oil can be incorporated into the gel when coupled with a natural polymer like xanthan. And also says Emulsifier-stabilizer and thickener - 0.5 - 5%
How do I know how much to use? Would 5% be used if I use 25% oil? That seems like a lot?----
Urea makes me nervous. One comment on reddit claims it degrades into isocyanic acid. But after doing a lot of searching, it seems like it takes a very high temperature to convert to isocyanic acid? Like 200-300°F?
I really just wanted to make a urea toner and mix urea and water, adjust the pH and add the preservative but I've read that urea is less stable in aqueous solutions. And it made me nervous ... argh!
It sounds like it has a pH drift. Do I need to worry about that if I'm only going to keep for a month or so? I also think it's most stable at a pH of 6. I've read on a post on here to use a lactate buffer. Is that like lactic acid? Do you put it in at the end?
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Procedure:
A: Dissolve urea in water then add xanthan gum and blend until mixed.
B: Blend oil and Polyacrylate Crosspolymer-6
Add B to A and blend. Then add preservative? Or should I mix the preservative in phase A?
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This has been so exhausting trying to figure out - I don't know who else to ask but you lovely people. I'm very grateful for any advice
Side note- I just joined this forum and I'm seeing the formulating services offered. I wish I had known before buying everything! Would one of these services be able to make something that is very specific?
Comments
As an aside, have you tried Hada Labo or Uremol 10 cream? You might be able to tolerate them.
You can try making an emulsion with your Sepimax Zen. I've never used it so I don't know if it is able to tolerate that much oil (you list 15-20% CCT) and a buffer. Maybe, try less oil and 2% gluconolactone, as it was recommended in the urea cream formulation I've seen somewhere. Personally I've just abandoned urea as an ingredient as I haven't seen any difference.
My face really hates any cleansers/antifungal shampoos so I try to avoid them. I've had luck with Hamilton urea cream (same ingredients as uremol 10 cream) but it has petrolatum in it. So, I need a cleanser to properly take it off. It makes my skin baby smooth and gets rid of any signs of SD but using a cleanser irritates my face so much. It's so weird how everyone is different in what works for them!
Gluconolacctone was something I was considering too, thanks
Sepimax zen is a fantastic material in general but even this one might not be able to deal with urea.
If urea doesn't do well in o/w emulsions, does it not do well in aqueous products like toners/serums? Would the main issue be the pH drift? If I made a simple urea toner and checked the pH to make sure it doesn't drift, would that indicate it is stable?
I found this pretty simple 4% urea serum on humblebeeandme:
https://www.humblebeeandme.com/soothing-hyaluronic-acid-facial-serum/
which is pretty much water, aloe, sodium lactate, Propanediol 1,3, preservative. Not sure if this would be stable or not.I forgot to mention the buffer in my post because I wasn't sure what the final pH would be and if it was necessary. I was thinking sodium lactate, lactic acid or gluconolactone.
It says here: https://www.makingcosmetics.com/fact-sheets/fact-sheet-creammaker-silicone.pdf , that Creamaker silicone has an 'HLB value' of 2.
but on this page: https://www.makingcosmetics.com/FAQ-HLB-Value_ep_122-1.html
it says
HLB 1 - 3: Antifoaming Properties
HLB 3 - 8: w/o-Emulsification
HLB 7 - 9: Wetting Properties
HLB 9 - 18: o/w-Emulsification
HLB 15 - 20: Solubilizing Properties
So I'm confused if it has an HLB of 2, how can it be a w/o emulsifier?
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Does anyone know if Emulthix from lotioncrafter is w/o or o/w? Or if anyone has a reading material they can suggest to me, please do!
Water Phase
- Distilled Water
- Glycerin (1.5% - 3%)
- Urea (5%)
- Buffer - Triacetin (0.25%)
Oil Phase- Caprylic/Capric Triglycerides (15% - 20%)
- Sepinov EMT 10 (1.2%)
Others- pH Buffer - Lactic Acid (q.s)
- Preservative as required
Instructions:- Dissolve/add the ingredients into the distilled water
- Slurry the Sepinov EMT 10 in the CCT
- Add the slurry into the water phase and mix till gel
- Add the remaining ingredients
---I'd recommend to make a fresh batch to retain the maximum effect of the Urea since it will break down in water over time. You can make one batch ever 2 months or so? You can observe the pH and for any bubbling.
The pH shouldn't shoot up as much with the Triacetin, however you can choose to use other buffers, then you can opt for Sepimax Zen, if not the Sepinov EMT 10 should be easier to deal with as the Sepimax Zen requires some hydration duration.
http://www.iscd.it/files/UREA-FROM-THE-CHEMIST-S-POINT-OF-VIEW.pdf
I wouldn't mind making it every couple weeks if I had to!
I'm not sure if Triacetin (Glyceryl Triacetate) is 'safe' for seborrheic derm but at .25% I doubt it would be a problem. I think I will give Triacetin a try!
Maybe I can try a batch with sodium lactate or Gluconolactone instead of Triacetin and compare them too.
Thank you again for taking the time to help me
edit: Do you know if Sepinov EMT 10 is classified as a w/o or o/w emulsifier? I still have no idea how to tell. >.<
Though with the Sodium Lactate, you will need to use Sepimax Zen or no polymeric emulsifier at all as they won't be able to take the electrolytes. You can consider your previous combination, Sepimax Zen + Gum, if not a normal emulsifier with fatty alcohol or acid should be fine as well.
With Gluconolactone, the pH will go in 2 directions so the ultimate amount to add would vary. Not sure if it's something that you want to try out but it's this formulation would be one that you'd need to observe more closely.
I wouldn't have thought of sodium lactate as an electrolyte but now that you say it, it's pretty obvious it is. I wish urea wasn't so tricky, i'd love to just stick it in some water with a buffer and call it a day. But I've heard it doesn't do well in aqueous solutions.
Would it be ridiculous to mix some urea in distilled water every day and not worry about any of this? lol
Could you please tell me where you buy your Triacetin?
Re: water in oil, trust me you need to master o/w first. W/O take a lot of knowledge and months (if not years) of practice.
Let's start from the beginning. Do you want to make a moisturiser for very dry skin? If this is what you are trying to achieve, there are plenty of good humectants and good occlusive materials that work pretty well. Don't start with a problematic material that requires years of experience. You still can make a decent product that will do what you want and will be elegant upon application.
You need glycerin, sodium lactate (or sodium PCA or both), chelating agent (disodium EDTA) petrolatum, mineral oil, a good broad-spectrum preservative (germaben II is good), anhydrous lanolin, a decent emulsifier (GMS+PEG-100 stearate, Ceteareth 20), thickener (cetearyl alcohol, cetyl alcohol) and some sort of stabiliser (Zen would work, but you can go for xanthan).
I've solved all my skin concerns expect for one. The layer of crust that develops from Sebderm after a couple days of not doing honey masks or having a 10% urea cream on my face. Problem is, it has petrolatum in it and my skin just can't handle being cleansed all the time.
The ingredients for the 10% urea cream are:
Water, mineral oil, urea, glycerin, petrolatum, cetearyl alcohol, cetyl alcohol, triethanolamine, carbomer, ceteareth-20, methylparaben, ethylparaben, butylparaben, propylparaben, isobutylparaben.
Here is another 10% urea cream almost identical:
Water, Mineral Oil, Urea, Glycerin, Petrolatum, Ceteth-20, Cetyl Alcohol, Cetearyl Alcohol, Triethanolamine, Carbomer, Phenoxyethanol, Methylparaben, Propylparaben, Lactic Acid
Maybe I can try to recreate something like this. Just drop the petrolatum and do 5% urea instead. I'm perfectly okay with trying and failing. At least I can cross it off my list of things to try. I know urea is an ingredient that works for me.
How does one know if they are using a w/o or o/w emulsifier if the manufacturer doesn't tell you? And is urea the problematic ingredient in this case?
Can I just drop the lotion idea entirely and throw urea in some water with a buffer and preservative?
Kinda mad that the safety data sheet for urea on makingcosmetics and lotioncrafter makes it sound like you can do almost anything with it and not mess up. They don't mention the pH drift of urea either.
Speaking of how do you know whether it's w/o or o/w, you can google it. Ulprospector (even the free version) is usually good at saying what kind of emulsifier it is.
It's still a DIY website, though, and is probably best for advanced hobbyists.
The other poster is just trying to tell you urea creams are difficult to formulate and I think they are right. You are welcome to try but I would encourage you to be less dismissive of help.
My lab made a 10% urea cream with Cithrol DPHS (PEG-30 Dipolyhydroxystearate). I wasn't involved with it but have made w/o emulsions with that emulsifier and think it could work for you.
The very first thing I said in my very first post was "After struggling to find a urea product that is 'safe' for seborrheic dermatitis, I've decided to try and make my own. I want to start simple and then add to it. "
@jemolian was incredibly helpful and I'm truly grateful for his response. But he provided something helpful to assist my project. Not completely bashing the very thought of it.
Ngara says " Don't start with a problematic material that requires years of experience."
I asked him " And is urea the problematic ingredient in this case?" No response. He just keeps telling me " trust me you need to master o/w first. W/O take a lot of knowledge and months (if not years) of practice. "
So I tried to ask if I could just ditch the lotion idea all together and put some urea in a toner with a buffer and a preservative. He won't answer if his problem is with me trying to make a w/o emulsion or if the problem is urea.
Why does lotioncrafter and makingcosmetics make it seem like you can just mix it into anything and there will be no problems.
"Reactivity: Not reactive under normal conditions of use"
"Chemical Stability: No known hazardous reactions"
"Possibility of Hazardous Reactions: Will not occur"
"Conditions to Avoid: Gross bacterial contamination"
"Hazardous Decomposition Products: Urea is decomposed by heating and can form products including ammonia..."
I'm not gonna heat it, I'm not using sewer water, so what exactly is the problem is my question.
I'm not keeping this product around for months at a time. I've come to find (through the help of jemolian and other sources) that as long as the pH isn't drifting, there are no bubbles forming, or crystals forming, then the urea is most likely fine. I tried asking this question too, what exactly is it about urea that is so difficult to formulate with? no answer just simply don't do it, you're gonna die
According to this paper (http://www.iscd.it/files/UREA-FROM-THE-CHEMIST-S-POINT-OF-VIEW.pdf), urea creams above 10% should be W/O emulsions. "For the treatment of pronounced dermatological disturbances such as psoriasis vulgaris, different forms of ichthyosis, atopic dermatitis and extremely dry skin, 10% U in W/0 should be applied (5,6). U in W/0 has not such a distinct immediate effect but has a longer lasting beneficial action due to its deeper penetration into the skin." W/O emulsions are inherently trickier. For these reasons, and a lot of anecdotal evidence from my coworkers, I view it as a problem in formulating. However, again, I have not worked with it.
If you feel you have been helped I'm glad. I really don't see a problem with you making a batch of this stuff and closely watching its stability. Do know a lot of people that try to help on this website are professionals and don't have time to respond to every reply, I don't think you should get upset with anyone over that.
The only major safety concern I can think of is the fact urea is a good penetration enhancer, so be careful what else you mix it with. I don't see a problem with a 'urea toner' , and it's easier to start simple and work your way up- maybe you just add a gum to thicken the toner for easier application before you tackle an emulsion with it.
Regarding Humblebeeandme, i find that for Marie's content, it has evolved from kitchen DIY to something more experienced, so i'd only recommend for reference for people that are either beginners or intermediate levels.
I completely agree, and I don't expect anyone to go out of their way to help me. That is why I was respectful and grateful for any response. Even when he was crapping on my entire concept, I was still respectful. He then crapped all over humblebeandme and couldn't answer a simple question to state WHY. After 5 days of waiting for a response, I decided to tell the person who asked me about why humblebeandme was not a good source that he just wants to spread fear for some reason. It would be one thing if he just didn't have time to respond but he has been active on this forum every day.
I was very excited to finally try and make a urea product after spending over a year trying to find the perfect one. I had been contemplating it for months and months and I finally went through with it after spending much time researching it. If I could just buy the perfect product with 5% urea, I'd rather do that, but I don't have that option.
After reading his comments, all my ingredients are just sitting in a box in a closet. I don't know why anyone would discourage someone without giving them a reason why. I'm gonna give it a shot, maybe I'll start with a simple 'toner' and monitor how it changes. Now I know what to look out for! (information that falls under the helpful category... not discouragement). But anyway, enough of that.
Thank you @EVchem, @Pharma, and @jemolian for your tips
You (whoever) really need to read and understand THIS because it is all-you-need-to-know about how to formulating with Urea. I asked the most questions and fortunately @Pharma is the only one who was willing to entertain me in full. He suddenly went silent, I do not know why. But enough data for me to safely and peacefully carry on my experiments.
Summary: Maintain pH at 6.2, mix something to achieve eutectic solution.
I have samples at approximately pH 6 and some are low pH (2-4). I keep them in vacuum pump bottle. They expand very little that it does not matter, this is after one year. I live in the tropics, temperature is very high, Urea should be hydrolysed even quicker, but still does not matter.
Urea will recrystallise if a solution is only Urea and Water. This is the confusing part, people say Urea is a humectant and very hygroscopic, but makes no sense how can it be hygroscopic when it becomes crystals once water is evaporated, yes? Beats me! No body can answer this. LOL!
Because Urea recrystallises, something else must be added to Urea such as Glycerol, Sorbitol, Sucrose, etc. Basically anything that will not recrystallise once hydrated. So that formation of Urea crystals is prevented. (Fun fact: Another confusing 'humectant' which is said to be superior or the best is Sodium Hyaluronate/Hyaluronic Acid. This will become flaky/dried)
I have been making moisturiser with Urea as the main celebrity for three years, it is difficult to go wrong with it.
Lotion Crafter, Humblebeeandme, Swiftcraftymonkey, and the likes of them are not truly into what most actual chemists and pharmacists in this site are doing. DIY sites are regurgitating whatever they read on companies/makers' brochure. When they say they do their 'research', their research is Google University that anybody can do.
Some DIY sites are obsessed with PubMed or other sciency sites, they whip out circular argument always pointing back to PubMed or other sciency sites. PubMed says 40% Urea is hydrating, they made 40% Urea cream and complained Urea is drying and irritating, suddenly Urea got bad reputation. PubMed says Glycerol makes skin healthy, they slapped on neat Glycerol and complained Glycerol burns and causes itching, suddenly Glycerol got bad reputation.