how to mix cbd isolate into base product

mattd9159mattd9159 Member
in Formulating
need help with method to mix cbd isolate into this base product:
Ingredients;
menthol, allantoin, aloe barbadensis leaf juice, carbomer, diisopropyl adipate, eucalyptus globulus leaf oil, glycerin, mentha piperita (peppermint) oil, methyl salicylate, SD alcohol 40 (15% w/w), steareth-2, steareth-21, thymus vulgaris (thyme) oil, tocopheryl acetate, triethanolamine, water (234-166) 
do I need an emulsifying agent such as polysorbate or will it homogenize on its own?
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Comments

  • EVchemEVchem Member
    You mean you are going to post-add it to a finished base? I've done that with small amounts of isolate already dissolved in MCT. I can't speak to the stability of that though
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    You probably need an emulsifying agent.
    Learn to formulate cosmetics
  • mattd9159mattd9159 Member
    What ratio of polysorbate 80 to cbd distillate would be recommended? 3:1?
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    That would be a good place to start. It might require 4:1 but you need to experiment. I haven't done the testing myself.
    Learn to formulate cosmetics
  • mattd9159mattd9159 Member
    Great. Thanks! Will give it a try! Can you have multiple emulsifying agents in a formula? Such as poly 20 and 80?
  • EVchemEVchem Member
    @mattd9159 absolutely! most formulations have several emulsifiers. If you are a fan of the HLB school of thought then you try to choose emulsifiers that have slightly opposing properties that together can  balance out your specific ingredients. You can also always use 'polymeric' emulsifiers which as far as I understand are really holding phases apart physically rather than relying on chemical properties of hydrophobes and hydrophiles. If you need resources Perry's site has some great material and other posts on this forum do as well
  • chickenskinchickenskin Member
    https://www.walgreens.com/store/store/product/view_product_details.jsp?id=prod4481#!

    Is this the product you are using as a benchmark?  If so I already have this formulated.  PM and I can help you.
  • mattd9159mattd9159 Member
    How would I be able to test if the poly 80 to cbd ratio is stable. I tried a 3:1 ratio and it seems to visually emulsify well, but is there a way to test it or have some more certainty?
  • EVchemEVchem Member
    @mattd9159 the best test is the test of time... at a couple different conditions  of course.  Usually in our lab we run a sample at room temp , 45C, maybe 50C, and a freezer sample to repeatedly stress.  CBD is super sensitive to light so a condition exposed to UV might also be a good point of study, though hopefully your final packaging will be opaque.
  • mattd9159mattd9159 Member
    Thanks, how long should the samples be exposed to these stability tests? Should leave in freezer overnight? 24hr? And same with the heated methods?
  • ozgirlozgirl Member, PCF student
    Here is some information on conducting stability tests.



  • chemicalmattchemicalmatt Member, Professional Chemist
    Sounds like this one went off the rails into a stability testing narrative. Answering the original question: CBD isolate is lipid soluble and you don't have enough lipids to dissolve it. Try adding MCT or just a lot more of the DAP ester already in there. It dissolves in mineral oil too.
  • mattd9159mattd9159 Member
    so using polysorbate alone will not emulsify the cbd into the existing mixture?
    a lipid is needed?
    just to clarify
    wehave run stability tests with the 3:1 poly:cbd and it seems to be a stable mixture as is
  • Entropic_CocciEntropic_Cocci Member
    You actually just need to melt it into your oil phase. It melts very easily since isolates are typically 96-99% pure. I am a chemist for a CBD company.
  • mattd9159mattd9159 Member
    And what about a cbd distillate? We are now using an 80% distillate rather then isolate
  • EVchemEVchem Member
    shouldn't be much different to add, not sure how stability is affected. Unless you are buying 'water-soluble' cannabis compounds (which I think are bull), then the oil phase or on cooldown if the amount is small are the best bet
  • DSTANKDSTANK Member
    Both distillate and Isolate should be fairly soluble in MCT oil/Sweet Almond Oil. You can add them to your oil phase. Usually the distillates and isolates are stable at high temperatures of upto 190F.

  • mattd9159mattd9159 Member
    What temp should we heat the cbd distillate to before mixing with the mct?
  • chickenskinchickenskin Member
    just stir heat the batch up to 70C.... without neutralizing.  add your cbd....  cut the heat and stir in the TEA...  should go in just fine.   done this many times
  • DSTANKDSTANK Member
    Distillate is stable at 70-80C
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