Saccharide Isomerate

Mrs_ditdutMrs_ditdut Member
in Formulating
Hi guys, 

I'm thinking of formulating a skin care product using this material (Saccharide isomerate), however I couldn't find much information on this. One thing for sure that this is a humectant, and most formulation I found online use hyaluronic acid or glycerin as its humectant ingredient. 

Can you please share your experience using Saccharide isomerate and maybe advice on how to handle it, is it as easy as using ha or glycerin ?

Thank you :) 

Comments

  • EVchemEVchem Member
    I have used this in the blend from DSM (Pentavitin) at 1% or less in formulations. In the blended form it is easy to use and I don't see any issues since it is at low levels. The suppliers max recommended use of the blend is 5%, and the supplier says about 50% of the blend is the isomerate.  If you have an account on UL prospector you'll be able to see formulations and the full datasheet
  • Unknown Member
    Yes, I have used it in a few formulations.  Consider it a Glycerin alternative to give your label something different and use it the same way you use Glycerin in moisturizers.
  • Unknown Member
    I have also used Pentavitin and it is very easy to use in aqueous formulations. It is quite different from glycerin or hyaluronate in physical properties - definitely easier to handle than dry hyaluronate. DSM claims it binds with free amino groups in keratin, so it doesn't wash away unlike other humectants.
  • Mrs_ditdutMrs_ditdut Member
    EVchem said:
    I have used this in the blend from DSM (Pentavitin) at 1% or less in formulations. In the blended form it is easy to use and I don't see any issues since it is at low levels. The suppliers max recommended use of the blend is 5%, and the supplier says about 50% of the blend is the isomerate.  If you have an account on UL prospector you'll be able to see formulations and the full datasheet

    Thank you for your input.

    I'm thinking of using 2%, do you think it's too much ? I'm also using other humectant as well (butylene glycol and glycerin).
  • Mrs_ditdutMrs_ditdut Member
    Yes, I have used it in a few formulations.  Consider it a Glycerin alternative to give your label something different and use it the same way you use Glycerin in moisturizers.

    Thank you for your response.

    May I know at what percentage you’re using this ingredient in your formulation ?


  • Mrs_ditdutMrs_ditdut Member
    I have also used Pentavitin and it is very easy to use in aqueous formulations. It is quite different from glycerin or hyaluronate in physical properties - definitely easier to handle than dry hyaluronate. DSM claims it binds with free amino groups in keratin, so it doesn't wash away unlike other humectants.

    Thank you for your response.

    May I know at what percentage you’re using this ingredient in your formulation ?


  • Mrs_ditdutMrs_ditdut Member
    edited November 2018
    I’m planning to make an essence formulation, so far what I have in mind is this :

    80. 5% Distilled Water 
    10% Aloe Vera Liquid
    1% Saccharide Isomerate
    2% Butylene Glycol
    2% Oat-Beta Glucan
    2% Sea Kelp Bioferment
    1% White Tea Extract
    0.5% Panthenol
    0.2% Sodium Gluconate
    0.8% Preservative (Optiphen+)

    Am I missing something ? Does the percentage of each ingredient works fine (not irritating) ? Please help...I really need an input. 

    Thank you very much. 
  • EVchemEVchem Member
    The easiest way to learn is to try and make that formula.
  • Unknown Member
    @Mrs_ditdut I normally incorporate it between 0.5% - 1.0% w/w in leave-on formulations.
  • duyennguyenduyennguyen Member
    I also use saccharides as humectant in cream soap. However, my formulation decreased its viscosity during the time. Saccharides are the cause, aren't them ?
  • Mrs_ditdutMrs_ditdut Member
    EVchem said:
    The easiest way to learn is to try and make that formula.
    Yeah, you're absolutely right. Thank you :) 
  • Mrs_ditdutMrs_ditdut Member
    CriticalMicelle said:
    @Mrs_ditdut I normally incorporate it between 0.5% - 1.0% w/w in leave-on formulations.
    Thank you so much for this input! :smile:
  • janelejanele Member
    Does anybody know what is the chemical composition of this saccharide isomerate?
  • SibechSibech Member, Professional Chemist
    @janele Pentavitin is an isomerate of D-glucose mostly consists of glucose and fructose (Besides water).
    Dabbling Formulator — Qualified Cosmetic Safety Assessor — experienced in claim substantiation & EU regulatory affairs.
  • Dreamer77Dreamer77 Member
    I have used Pentavitin at 5% in many formulations with 0 issues. My clients love it. You can also use sorbitol additionally and avoid the stickiness of glycerine. Also, you can use a cationic type of humectant, Cola P200, that binds on the skin (being cationic) and has bigger humectant capacity compared to glycerine and no stickiness. 
  • mariamaria Member
    Providing that' PENTAVITIN® has the ability to bind to free lysine amino groups ( ε amino group) of stratum corneum proteins which results in a covalent complex with high water retention. ' that can only be removed by the natural process of desquamation, is it wise to formulate Pentavitin along with amino acids such as lysine and/or other aminoacids with free amino groups? 
  • Cst4Ms4Tmps4Cst4Ms4Tmps4 Member
    edited November 2019
    @janele
    I tried 'making' Pentavitin. Hehehehe.

    I tasted it. It has caramel flavour. And so I boiled Sucrose with 1% Citric Acid (add some water. 2g Sucrose can dissolve in 1g water). Boil the solution until its temperature reaches about 110°C. This process splits Sucrose to Glucose and Fructose, basically honey.

    I compared Pentavitin and my fake 'honey'. Pretty similar. But Pentavitin is a little less viscous and more spreadable. Because it is business (yes I contacted them. More like harassed them. LOL) the company is secretive about its data.

    I digress. 

    Because it is a 'trade secret' I safely presumed that it must have something else done/added to it. And so, I added a little nonionic surfactant. Voila! DIY Pentavitin! Certainly Pentavitin does not foam! Mine foams!  :D

    I do not know about the binding of amino acid though. It is washed away, it is washed away, no 'high water retention'. I thought 5% was too little, I slapped pure Pentavitin without mixing it with anything. Same story. Oh well, I thought maybe once is not enough, I did the same thing (using it straight from the bottle) for days, 2 or more times in a day. Still the same, nothing special.

    I don't believe that my skin desquamates every single day! I am more than sure that I do not scrub nor use any 'harsh' surfactant.

    I was given a brochure all about Pentavitin. Still, not enough data. The classic "$54 cheaper. 39% more"  psychological tactic.

    Cheaper than what?
    More than what?
    Relative to what?
    "Better/superior" compared to what?

    I concluded that it is another marketing. The company told me that I need to use it for some weeks. Huh? Some weeks? Isn't all things/products need few weeks of application in order to see some positive results? Slathering petroleum jelly or Glycerol can do the same thing anyway, if used for some weeks, and these two are considered gold standards for valid reasons.
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    edited November 2019
    Isn't THIS the 'facts sheet' and THAT the therein cited publication?
    Weird that they name it saccharide isomerate since, by definition, it's not a saacharide isomerate but a modified exopolysaccharide... Also, it's strange that the publication which determined the molecule's structure mentions 'use as cosmetics' but they didn't do anything cosmetics related. Also, they did state that it's a linear polysaccharide and not a word about folding or receptor interactions...
    Anyway, it seems as if that molecule ain't synthetic honey as the name implies but a marine polymer.
  • Cst4Ms4Tmps4Cst4Ms4Tmps4 Member
    edited November 2019
    Oh, it's you again @Pharma . I don't know where in the world you dig so much peculiar data.  Thanks science I get to learn from you. I'm always seeing spirits of alchemist, astrologers, and priests in ancient past, which is cool. I'm not 'complaining'. ROFL!

    Ugh. What you mentioned confirms my confirmation biased of my own informal, self-funded, and insignificant research experimentation and lowly observation.

    Dafaq....so now that particular "saccharide isomerate" is brightening complex!?!?!?!?! Maybe I am not tanned enough to see the effect. Maybe I did not use for 'some weeks' to see the effect. I am very confused.

    There again, the psychological tactic. A massive list of % but no mention compared to what.

    I am not a chemist/pharmacist but I know for certain that Tretinoin works.

    Brightening - Tretinoin
    Receptor thing - Tretinoin
    Melanin & pigmentation - Tretinoin
    Reduction everything except body fat- Tretinoin
    Collagen/stimulation - Tretinoin
    Mess/modify genes -  Tretinoin

    Although I DIY my moisturiser and worship Urea, I still use 0.05% Tretinoin cream. I worship Tretinoin in actuality. Urea et al, is just as moisturiser, purely to moisturiser.

    To me, Tretinoin is the king & queen of beauty! Many people say that my skin is better that that of female. I kid you not! Koreans have insane 6 to 9 steps regime called "glass skin", shines like no body's business. I have only one step and get similar shiny skin, saves me much money and time. Work smart, not work hard. Bonus is my skin is clear of blackheads that even Salicylic Acid can't reduce. I mean Salicylic Acid can reduce blackheads but it does not linger like Tretinoin. The 'clean/nice effect' continues for quite a while after the application of Tretinoin is stopped, could last for many months depending on an individual's genetic makeup, lifestyle, and external factors.

    Hence, by marketing logic I would say this "Tretinoin is 251% more effective. 77 times cheaper. Increases beauty factor by 168%".  Compared to what? I don't know. Use the imagination. Hahaha!
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    Yea, brightening complex, that's what my shrink diagnosed! Told me that I'm having a brightening complex cause I'm under the illusion of being brighter than everyone else :smiley: .
    Tretinoin is a prescription drug here around. It sure does a great job but, at least the oral form, has a very long lasting effect causing embryonic developmental disorders which require up to 5 years post treatment to fall down to a normal level ;( ! That's especially brutal since most patients taking it are teeny girls which, for a fair part, are likely getting pregnant in a few years.
    The effect on skin might be like 'live short and intensely' because of accelerated cell renewal = look like 20 for the first 40 years and for the rest more like 200.
  • raiyanaraiyana Member
    Pharma said:
    Yea, brightening complex, that's what my shrink diagnosed! Told me that I'm having a brightening complex cause I'm under the illusion of being brighter than everyone else :smiley: .
    Tretinoin is a prescription drug here around. It sure does a great job but, at least the oral form, has a very long lasting effect causing embryonic developmental disorders which require up to 5 years post treatment to fall down to a normal level ;( ! That's especially brutal since most patients taking it are teeny girls which, for a fair part, are likely getting pregnant in a few years.
    The effect on skin might be like 'live short and intensely' because of accelerated cell renewal = look like 20 for the first 40 years and for the rest more like 200.
    This is totally brutal. Is there a paper that says this, if you can share about the oral form tretinoin that stays in human body for up to 5 years? Thats crazy, coz just like you said teenage girls are desperate to get acne free skin. Thank you!
  • raiyanaraiyana Member
    And @Pharma , what do you mean exactly by "The effect on skin might be like 'live short and intensely' because of accelerated cell renewal = look like 20 for the first 40 years and for the rest more like 200." ?

  • Cst4Ms4Tmps4Cst4Ms4Tmps4 Member
    edited November 2019
    @Pharma
    Hahahaha! I got your humour! Many Asians actually do have Brightening Complex that causes their Inferiority Complex!

    Oh well. REALLY good, proven, inarguable stuff like Tretinoin has its own downsides.

    Yes what did you mean by "look like 20 for the first 40 years and for the rest more like 200.". LOL

    Do you mean Hayflick Limit? I thought it is true only inside the body and false for skin.

    THIS shows cultured cells. We know that most of the time what is tested in the laboratory does not always work the same outside of the laboratory.

    THIS maybe selling things but the information is logical.

    I would have accelerated aging soon if it was true! I can't seem to stop using Tretinoin!

    @raiyana
    The oral form of Tretinoin is Isotretinoin. Trade name is "Accutane". Thailand one is "Acnotin".

    If it is not 5 years it is loooooooong enough that the substance is in your system. I know because I was on Isotretinoin. I would not have said Tretinoin/Isotretnoin has lingering effect if it was not true.

    You sound like a feminist or a person who 'coincidentally' has good genes for good skin. You never know the real struggle of people suffering from acne. Especially true for teenagers girls or boys. Why do you think South Koreans commit suicide and lost their life if they can't afford to be beautiful? In Malaysia, we are not that critical killing ourselves but the fact and reality are similar if not the same as that of in South Korea. I was rejected countless of times due to my attire, skin colour, skin complexion, hair. And because I look significantly younger than my chronological age.

    I don't know where you live. In where I live people prejudge you on the outside. They don't like what they see that is the end of you.

    Likewise, being anorexic is beautiful. Don't believe me? Ask fashion designers and compared the models in the past and see the changes.

    And of late, morbidly obese is the new beauty. 

    Why do you think beauty industry is a bloody rich industry? Why do you think people still willingly buy hopes and pipe dreams that they know is bullsh*t despite of all science and truth told?

    Maybe you have horrid skin, you don't care, you live in a community or country that doesn't care about outwards appearances. Good on you then!
  • Cst4Ms4Tmps4Cst4Ms4Tmps4 Member
    edited November 2019
    @raiyana
    Now, I see that is a red herring, argumentum ad ignorantiam, and ad hominem.

    How is "Isotretinoin in the system for 5 years" related to the blatant accusation "coz just like you said teenage girls are desperate to get acne free skin"? How is it a causation? These two are different arguments. 

    Isotretnoin/Tretinoin inherently stays in the system; it is natural; naturally happens. It is not @Pharma saying teenage girls are desperate to get acne-free skin, not even jokingly. Although the burden of proof is on @Pharma , does not at all mean he truly meant teenage girls are desperate to get acne-free skin.

    What he truly meant is girls who are/were on Isotretioin would get married within that said 5 years. Rather than desperate to be acne-free, they are desperate to getting married! You should be screaming GIRL! BAH! IMPATIENT GIRLS! THEY NEVER LEARN TO CONTROL THEIR SEX HORMONES! The girls don't have to be desperate to have nice skin. It is the character of Isotretinoin/Tretinoin.

    Those who got Tretinoin or Isotretinoin they will be warned about pregnant people and/or getting pregnant. There is a leaflet in every tube/capsule. The warning is clearly there.

    I am not siding anyone but your argument is incongruent. Is like somebody told me drinking too much water too quickly will kill me, and then I yelled at that person YOU SAID IT LIKE YOU WANT ME DIE FAST OR YOU DESPERATELY WANT ME DEAD!!!! HOW VERY DARE YOU!! The sad fact is water kills whether I like it or not. World history is the evidence.
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    Dang, I can't find the information we've got anymore, it was from this summer about latest data regarding birth defects. Official sites and up-to-date go-to pages such as embryotox.de still have retinoids listed as no pregnancy for 1 month post therapy. It's not the compound which stays longer than that in the system, it seems rather like an effect on gene expression which shows some sort of 'reverberation'.
    The other point is a concern which has been raised regarding the rejuvenating hype and not just retinoids: When your cells divide, they cut off a little piece of the telomers (end parts of your chromosomes). Once the telomers are used up, the cell can no longer divide. This means, at least in theory, boosting cell renewal uses up the body's inherent repair system or in other words, you get older faster. But that's AFAIK just an educated guess which hasn't been proven in real life but seems to me as if it could be true.
  • Cst4Ms4Tmps4Cst4Ms4Tmps4 Member
    Just as I guessed! Yes, I am familiar with that part (telomere, senescence, apoptosis) of genetics. However I could not dig Google Scholar for anything about Tretinoin shortening telomere or Hayflick limit correlates to the use of Tretinoin.

    Yes, I am focusing on topical one. Since internal route nearly almost has much more pronounced effect to the body than things on skin. Systemic, I would say.

    According to what I found so far, the limit does not apply to the skin because the outer skin is already meant to be broken down, similar to Urea and acids only deals with dead part of the skin and not touch the live one. The logic is we are helping the skin to shed dead skin faster. This may be a false equivalence because Tretinoin is a different type of creature which truly messes with genetic information whereas Urea does not mess with genes.

    Maybe Tretinoin is another thing that science cannot answer properly. Ugh!
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    edited November 2019
    Fortunately, skin penetration is piss poor for tretinoids! But they all rely on living cells because their effect is mediated via gene expression. Faster shedding is due to faster cell differentiation/maturation = (hypothetically) faster cell life = earlier death (cell cultures 'getting old' is something observed easily in in vitro cell culture treated with 'differentiation enhancers'). This is just a 1+1=2 logic since it nowhere says that it speeds up cell division. It's also the accelerated differentiation of cells which causes teratogenic effects. Differentiation is like job specialisation including school/apprenticeship: If your kids take magic drug X to become an expert in field this or that earlier doesn't necessarily mean that they live less long or that population will go extinct earlier, it just means that you can save tuition.
  • helenhelenhelenhelen Member
    @Pharma A while ago I read the same thing about used up telomers but about panthenol in skincare. I wasn't sure whether to be worried or not about using panthenol as an ingredient in skincare products...
  • Cst4Ms4Tmps4Cst4Ms4Tmps4 Member
    edited November 2019
    Unbelievable! Panthenol too???? :s

    I speak from personal experience, after treating my skin with Tretinoin, I observed that it acts like any acids. Acids is said to stimulate 'something'. I think anything that irritates the skin will stimulate collagen production. One well known thing is Derma Rolling, its predecessor (I forgot its name) is using a fat needle and poke in and out (ewww) destroying the bottom of the skin. Then, third and forth generations are lasers. Different methods but the goal is exactly the same, that is to cause some good old irritation and destruction.

    It is weird that we do not often, maybe none, hear about the scares of accelerated cell differentiation and too much irritation. I assume, they (the negative and positive effects of Tretinoin) are pretty safe long term. I discount EWG and its cronies of course! LOL

    However, CosIng has warning about Tretinoin (retinoic acid and its salts). Oddly no long-winded essay about the dangers like it has for DMDM Hydantoin! And it says "Functions : Not reported"!

    Must be a joke. The world has been using known substance for known purposes for more than 40 years and acquired known results, but CosIng has no information on it.
  • raiyanaraiyana Member
    @Cst4Ms4Tmps4 i dont coincidentally have good genes. In fact, i dont have good skin at all. I've been using prescription tretinoin for almost two years at least 3 times a week if not every night. I've had my own share of bad skin experience and tretinoin is the only thing that works for me and i am not ready to stop using it. I used to take accutane a couple of years back for a few months before i started tretinoin, and i want to have kids soon, hence my question about isotretinoin in the system for 5 years.....
  • Cst4Ms4Tmps4Cst4Ms4Tmps4 Member
    edited November 2019
    @raiyana
    I see....I would then conclude that you were "joking". LOL. You were perhaps shockingly joke or jokingly shocked as you want to have kids soon. Understandable.

    Generally it is about 1 to few months of not getting pregnant after your last capsule. But according to @Pharma the effect is very long lasting. My personal experience (and others) we do not empirically measure the time but we know that the 'beauty' effect does last pretty long, some reported 1 year and more than 1 year. There are also some people reported to be acne-free for the rest of the life only after one treatment (of course with very high dosage), but does this mean the effect is permanent in specific individual or due to the high dosage...I don't truly know. 

    I do not know about the half life calculation. The staying power of Isotretinoin could be dose dependent. Seems like that. The after effect I experienced was between 6 and 12 months. I took 40mg, same dosage from start to finish (no change in dosage), the treatment lasted for 3 months.


  • raiyanaraiyana Member
    i didnt find anything funny in anyone's comments here.. I was in fact shocked to know how long isotretinoin stays in the body because when i was prescribed with it, my derm only asked me two things. "are you pregnant? are you breastfeeding?" at that point i was not.. and now i think my consultation was too brief. it was too easy for me to get my hands on these prescriptions. i think my derm should have also asked "any plans to get pregnant in the near future?"....
  • raiyanaraiyana Member
    @Cst4Ms4Tmps4 thank you, that is good info for me.
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    raiyana said:
    ... "are you pregnant? are you breastfeeding?"....
    Unfortunately, that's about common practice ;( . I think that at least in Europe and USA, two negative pregnancy tests before the first prescription and double-contraception (or no sex but what are the chances that a 15 year single today might not be single in 1 year) plus only treatments for 30 days (for women) with a pregnancy test every subsequent month/package are mandatory. But real life out there tells a completely different story.
    Weird enough, I can't find that warning we've got nor can I find that alleged retrospect study... I'm currently on a few days vacation so I'll have to check next week at the pharmacy if I can find either the mail or the letter somewhere there. Really bugs me cause it WAS there (am I hallucinating or what?)!
  • Cst4Ms4Tmps4Cst4Ms4Tmps4 Member
    edited November 2019
    @raiyana
     
    You are most welcome! Sharing is caring!
    I am known to put my nose in people's live and impose my 'religion' on others.

    Beauty and fitness industries are full of rubbish. Instagram Gurus are the latest thing. Lots of dangerous information, supports, and guides. But it is the Internet, it must be right and never wrong.

    Again, I do not know where you live, in where I live those 'doctors' be it government or private ones are not telling the truth. They tell half truth to speed things up and to avoid patients asking too many questions.

    On the government side, this might be also the reason why patients have to be either end up in no-cure or serious condition only then doctors suddenly say they found this and found that and need to take action now. The only good thing is they are extremely strict at giving out medical leave slip and drugs.

    On the private side, they are like car mechanics, they tell you that you need to fix things that do not need to be fixed. They LOVE prescribing antibiotics for every G*d d*mned thang! Understandably the private sector is not funded by taxpayers so they need to get money by hook or by crook. Sometimes also not addressing the actual root cause and patients can end up like how they are/will be treated by government doctors.


  • Dr Catherine PrattDr Catherine Pratt Member
    #pharma are you saying that Tretenoin is a 'live fast and dye young drug' giving you not only amazing skin but the feeling of an ephadrine compound with high arousal?? I need some right now!!! LOL
    Sometimes, just sometimes acne can go away on its own if you leave your face alone and go swimming in the sea. We touch are faces hundreds of times a day and no cosmetic regime is going to help the crap that we are actually doing to our own skin every few minutes a day!! Hope this makes sense!
    Dr. Catherine Pratt
    (B.Sc with HONS I , Ph.D Analytical/Organic Chem and Microbiology), Cosmetic Chemistry IPCS)
  • Cst4Ms4Tmps4Cst4Ms4Tmps4 Member
    edited November 2019
    Oh my days!  :o

    In my days people used to sunbathe because it eliminates acne, and so it did! It really works by sun burning the skin and peel. There is no need for TCA peel. There is absolutely no repercussion. Skin cancer is fake.

    High salt level in sea water never irritates the already irritated and inflamed skin. The best is make a paste of Himalayan salt, it emits negative ions good for one's overall well being and cures cancer.

    Above all, the sun and sea are natural and free!

    I am a spoilt child, you see. I unconsciously dig and touch my face especially when I am nervous as if OCD. But Tretinoin cream, basic personal hygiene, and simple technical know-how almost always zap my acne and exterminate inflammation with Hydrocortisone or Diclofenac or both emulsion gel, if I feel jolly I may swallow Diclofenac Potassium or Dexamethasone or both. Argh! I ought to leave my face alone and my skin will miraculously and naturally become impeccable!
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