Serum 15% vitamin C

RonitRonit Member
in Formulating
I'm trying to produce vitamin C serum which have 15% vitamin C (Ascorbyl palmitate).
If I want to make 50 ml serum, for 15% vitamin c, I need 7.5 grams Ascorbyl palmitate. But it's an enormous amount of powder that not melting with that amout of water and oils (42.5 ml of oils and water).
what do I do wrong?


other thing:
When I mix small molecule (such as Ascorbic acid) and large molecule (such as protein), is it still penetrate the skin?

Thanks

Comments

  • DoreenDoreen Member
    Ascorbyl palmitate has a low solubility and poor rate of dissolution in oil (30 mg/100 ml at room temperature). Do you add it to the heated oil phase?
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @Ronit:

    You'll never get 15% Ascorbyl Palmitate into a serum.  As @doreen noted it has poor solubility in oil and at that you have to heat the oil phase to 115C to get even 0.3% in solution.

    If you want an oil-based Vitamin C serum you should use tetrahexadecyl ascorbate.  3% should be fine ... serums with 15% to 20% Vitamin C are generally when you use Ascorbic Acid as the Vitamin C ingredient.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    Or you use sodium or potassium ascorbyl palmitate. It's an anionic emulsifier which forms micelles in water if heated to roughly 35°C.
  • RonitRonit Member

    Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I hated the Ascorbyl palmitate with oil to 85 degrees. When phase A has cooled down (40 degrees) I add phase B (water, lecithin, etc). In fact, I made the amount of 3% because 15% is just impossible.

    Of course with 15%  Ascorbic acid there is no problem to melt it, but everywhere I read about making vitamin C serum ,and if I want it will be effective, they recommend it contain 15%-20% vitamin C. As Ascorbic acid is unstable, every one use oily derivatives of vitamin C .

    I even looked the ingredients list for companies that sell  vitamin C serum, especially those who write that the product contains 20% vitamin C. The result is that it always contain one of the oily derivatives.

    So if it’s the oily derivatives do I need to use 15% or less??

     

  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @Ronit:

    The 15%+ is the most effective range for Ascorbic Acid ... actually, it's 17%.

    What "oily derivatives" of Vitamin C are you finding loaded at a 15% level?
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    BTW, 15% ascorbic acid equivalents equal 35% ascorbyl palmitate or 96% tetrahexadecyl ascorbate. Just saying...
  • RonitRonit Member
    MarkBroussard - they write 20% THD Ascorbate, 2% Ferulic Acid and 3% Vitamin E. the vit C is Tetrahexyldecyl Ascorbate.
     Do they put from that only 6.4% (if it equivalents to 96%)?
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    If they are putting 20% Tetrahexadecyl Ascorbate on the label, then technically is should be 20% Tetrahexadecyl Ascorbate.  The manufacturer's studies are conducted at a 3% THD Ascorbate load.  That's a very expensive formula at 20% THD Ascorbate.  Some of these companies are getting somewhat ridiculous on the elevated levels of Vitamin C they are adding into serums, just imho.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • RonitRonit Member

    Intresting....Thanks alot

    so if I want effective serum and equivalents to 15% ascorbic acid, Its enough  to add 2.3% ascorbyl palmitate or its better 3%?



  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    edited June 12
    Pharma said:
    BTW, 15% ascorbic acid equivalents equal 35% ascorbyl palmitate or 96% tetrahexadecyl ascorbate. Just saying...
    96%... I heard controversial opinions about tetrahexadecyl ascorbate. Some papers suggest it works but the sample is too small. I used 10% for a couple of months (made it myself, I don't think you can buy it at a such concentration) and didn't notice any difference.
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    @Ronit - what do you mean by "effective serum"?  What claims are you making about it?  How do you determine that the serum is effective?

    Learn to formulate cosmetics
  • chickenskinchickenskin Member
    https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/5830/ascorbyl-palmitate#latest     check this out
  • RonitRonit Member
    96%... I heard controversial opinions about tetrahexadecyl ascorbate. Some papers suggest it works but the sample is too small. I used 10% for a couple of months (made it myself, I don't think you can buy it at a such concentration) and didn't notice any difference.
    You use 10% ? If its equivalents to 96% why you do that? or you didn't know?

    Perry said:
    @Ronit - what do you mean by "effective serum"?  What claims are you making about it?  How do you determine that the serum is effective?

    Effective mean: antioxidant, skin firmness, protect from free radicals, minimise wrinkles signs, photo protective etc
    It is poss to get that by 10%-20% of vit C (and as I understand yesterday, these percents are for ascorbic acid)


    chickenskin - I read it later (with the links)
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    edited June 12
    Urks.... Hey guys/girls: The other way round!
    Tetrahexyldecyl ascorbate (THA) is a huge molecule with a comparatively small part being actually ascorbic acid (AA)! If you were to take a 15% AA solution and magically transformed it to THA, the solution would contain 96% THA and there'd be only 4% left for other ingredients. THA is not more active or anything, it's just sort of diluted in itself (well, theoretically it is more active, that's the official trick of THA but that's a different story). Idem for ascorbyl palmitate (AP) wherein only 30% is AA, the remaining 70% is a fatty acid. Hence, it's not that easy to switch from an concentrated AA formula to an AP and even more tricky to a THA formula.
    That's one reason why ascorbyl phosphate, ethyl ascorbic acid, and ascorbyl glucoside became more prominent: These molecules have a comparatively small molecular weight (obviously still higher than pure AA) i.e. you don't need that much more than with the older derivatives.
  • RonitRonit Member


    So what is the conclusion? 

    Is there a site/table that show how to calculate the percentage of ascorbyl palmitate (or any oily vit C) with regard to AA?

    How much AP do I need to add if AA is 15%, 16% and 17% ?

    Further to what you write here – 30%  small molecule 70% large molecule, is it still penetrate the skin and do the same work as AA do ?

  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    A site or table? Use molecular weight!
    AA is water soluble and depending on pH even a charged molecule whereas the aforementioned derivatives are fat soluble and charge neutral. Hence, these still small molecules are better in penetrating skin than free AA. On the downside, they have to be metabolised to become active. In theory, this is a great strategy. In reality... IDK (never read any paper bout this).
  • DoreenDoreen Member
    @ngarayeva001 ;
    96%... I heard controversial opinions about tetrahexadecyl ascorbate. Some papers suggest it works but the sample is too small. I used 10% for a couple of months (made it myself, I don't think you can buy it at a such concentration) and didn't notice any difference.
    Apparently there are several brands using it at 20% to even (way) higher.
    I have documents regarding, but unfortunately I still can't upload files here.
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