Is it possible to mix a silicone base with HA ?

Posmatrac10Posmatrac10 Member
in Formulating
Hello,

I am new to this site and my chemistry knowledge is pretty dusted but I would  like to start making my own cosmetic products for personal use and will appreciate any advice you kind people can give :-).
I am trying to make a very light facial moisturizer and have ordered ingredients from Lotioncrafter. I am planning to make a hyalorunic acid gel as follows:

Percent         Grams            Ingredient

 

  85                85                 Apple Essence

  1                  1                  Hyaluronic Acid HMW - 1.0 - 1.5 Million Daltons

  1                  1                  Hyaluronic Acid ELMW 80,000 - 110,000 Daltons

  5                  5                  dl-Panthenol

  5                  5                  Apple Stem Cell Extract 

  3                  3                  Leucidal Liquid


I have done this one previously and it worked well.

This time I would like to possible mix this HA gel with the 
LC995 Cyclomethicone( 96% Cyclopentasiloxane (D5)) somehow  and then add some of Lotioncrafter EL40 ( Dimethicone (and) Dimethicone Crosspolymer) for thickening.
Is it at all possible ? Do I need to add anything if I want the HA gel and the silicone base to come together ? 
I believe the silicone base is anhydrous so I can not add the HA to it just so ( as powder) right ? :-) :smile:

I apologize if I am talking rubbish - any advice is appreciated.

Thank you

Helena
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Comments

  • Posmatrac10Posmatrac10 Member
    I googled some more and came across Decyl Glucoside  - woul dthat maybe work ? If so how much and when could I try to add ?

    Thank you for any advice.
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    Please explain what exactly you are trying to make? A serum? What properties it should have?
  • Posmatrac10Posmatrac10 Member
    Thank you and  sorry I should have said that at the beginning. I am trying to make a facial moisturizer with very light texture, with no oils, that absorbs well and has superb moisturizing properties ( hence the HA) . It is just for myself - I have tried some like that that are commercially available but the price is what I do not like. So in essence I am trying to make a small batch of a similar gel moisturizer myself. I am really not experienced and have just a very superficial knowledge but I am very keen to learn and any advice would be appreciated.  
    Thanks again
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    edited January 2019
    Can you share the benchmark product. I am sorry for tons of questions but you have a list of ingredients some of which are great, other are frankly not so great and all together they won’t make a gel moisturizer.

    Decyl glucoside is a surfactant. It’s for foaming products, % are wrong, you have a great crosslinked silicone but it’s not a thickener, and I don’t understand what’s apple essense, is it a fragranced water?
  • Posmatrac10Posmatrac10 Member
    The benchmark product is the Water Drench Hyaluronic Cloud Cream Peter Thomas Roth, but I would be happy with just a similar consistency. My idea was to try to somehow join together the HA , which I have as a powder and the Cyclomethicone which is in liquid form and then add the Dimethicone which is a paste . But then I thought that maybe if I make the water based HA gel (serum) with all water soluble ingredients  (which I have made before and was happy with it, and yes the apple essence is fragranced water) and pretend that that is the water phase and then somehow take the silicones and emulsify it all together with the “water phase” that I might get the extremely light hydrating moisturizer that I so like. But this might be because I have minimal experience and need to educate myself.  I am sorry to even bother you - reading trough the discussions I realize now that this is a professional forum and assumes one knows the basics. I do have science background but I am not a chemist.
    If I post the question like this : How do you combine Hyaluronic Acid powder and slilicone base ?  Can you then please give me some advice ?  Thank you so much !
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    edited January 2019
    @Posmatrac10 No issue. At least you express a desire to learn and you know that you have things to learn. Had you professed to be an expert since you did tons of research on google, you would have a barrier there.

    Silicones are certainly advanced. I would suggest reading up on them as a targeted subject. Also, Shinetsu (a silicone distributor in the US) has some very similar starting formulas. That could help as well.


    I would ask first, define the benefits that you believe that the silicones will bring to the table. (Not in here necessarily, but in your Product Development). Then, if you have difficulty obtaining any of the raw materials it is easy to suggest a functional substitute.



    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • Posmatrac10Posmatrac10 Member
    Thank you !
    Being an expert in a different field makes me humble enough to realize my incompetency in others :) . I read the entry on Silicones posted on the blog of this site by Perry Romanovski as a start and will certainly keep reading and look at the Shinetsu info. 
    I am trying to formulate this just for my own use so the question of what benefits do the silicones bring to the table has been already answered - I love the consistency of products that contain them. 
    I believe a genetic disposition makes my epidermis  somehow “impermeable” for a multitude of ingredients and if I use any facial product containg oils, I can literally wipe the entire layer off my face hours after application. Silicone based products work for me. So I would like to make my own ones if it is possible.
    Thank you again for your support !
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    You may want to check out some retailers. I know that Formulator Sample Shop offers several silicone bases as well as some starting formulations.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    You cannot combine D5 (by the way D5 is a restricted product in Europe) and those other silicones and any water based medium. It will separate immediately. You will need an emulsifier system in there. An alternative would be to use a water-dispersible silicone ester.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member

    Waterphase:
    Aqua deionised = 1- sum (all ingredients below)
    disodium EDTA - .2%
    glycerin - 3%
    ceramides and cholesterol complex - 3%
    HA low weight- .5%
    germaben II- 1%
    oil phase:
    cyclomethicone - 2%
    emulthix (aka viscoptima) 2.5%
    EL40 - 1.5%

    Process: mix water and oil phase separately, then combine.

    the missing link was cold process emulsifier. The reason why I chose emulthix: sodium polyacrylate and silicones. Easy to work and good slip (especially combined with silicones), great viscosity.

    your benchmark uses ceramides complex as active. You can add apple stem cells, but I would prefer ceramides. Both are fairy dust though.

    You should change preservative. You are making it at home and need a reliable system. 

    Keep HA HMW for other projects. You don’t need it here.




  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    edited January 2019
    Everything listed above is available at lotioncrafter.
  • Posmatrac10Posmatrac10 Member
    Thank you ngarayeva , thank you so much! You are awesome ! I will post the result . If this works I will be one happy camper. And  yes, I know the “ actives” are in most cases just for the advertising ..., it is the hydration of the skin by HA that actually counts. Thank you also for the explanation of the missing link.

    I will keep learning - the book on Silicones that Microformulation sent the link for is beautifully written and even pwople like me who have forgotten a lot of the chemistry can enjoy reading.

    Thank you Belassi for your respose, I understand now. Why is D5 restricted in Europe?
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @Posmatrac10:

    All you need to do is use Sucrose Stearate as an emulsifier and you should achieve the result you  are looking for.  But, I would switch to a Super Low Molecular Weight HA to ease processing.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals & Clean Beauty arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program/Clean At Sephora/Credo Clean guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • Posmatrac10Posmatrac10 Member
    Thank you I will try that too !
  • Posmatrac10Posmatrac10 Member
    Seems Sucrose Stearate is not easy to get by in Canada though....
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    I don’t want to disappoint you about HA but it’s added at a tiny amount to the majority of commercial products. It’s very expensive and you can achieve the same level of moisturization with other humectants (glycerin, sodium pca, sodium lactate, propanediol etc.)
  • Posmatrac10Posmatrac10 Member
    Granted. But I am only creating this for myself in tiny batches and even if I buy the most expensive ingredients, the 100ml of product that lasts me a month would cost a fraction of the market price. But I like truth in science so de-mystification is definitely no disappointment :)
    The first thing I made myself was the HMW HA gel serum using Neroli hydrosol in place of part of the distilled water which gave it a nice scent and I was so happy with the ease of making this that I decided to learn more and say goodbye to Sephora like places... I bought a couple of those air-tight containers and it makes me smile when I know that the most expensive part of something I make and enjoy is - the container ! I only have the lab precise scales, a few beakers, a thermometer and a dedicated stick blender, ph test strips and a zest to learn. I share a batch with a friend so that it is spent soon and we do not need to keep it for long.
    But now I needed advice for how to work with the silicons so I came here. 
    Thank you again !
    From what I understand - the very simplified principle for creams is : you combine the water soluble ingredients in the water phase, oil soluble in the oil phase and then an emulsifier and force put them together into an emulsion. And they you work on how thick they should be and other properties you want ..etc..And you can do it with heat or without correct? For the silicons it is without the heat right?
    I must sound like a kindergarten child to you  :) ...
     
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    Hydrosol is a bug food. It doesn't add any benefits but the smell. 
    There is much more to it than "combine the water soluble ingredients in the water phase, oil soluble in the oil phase and then an emulsifier and force put them together into an emulsion". My advice, go to makingcosmetics and look at the types of emulsifiers. And then research each type. 
  • Posmatrac10Posmatrac10 Member
    Oh I was just making fun. I know there is much more. I am already looking at the site you recommended. I did not know about it, it is great ! 
    Talking about bug food .....don't we all eventually become worm food anyway :-).
    I use the hydrosol for the smell only, I know it is scented water basically but it gives a fragrance to the product. I will eventually try to add fragrance - it is added to the completed product right ?

  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    Why is D5 restricted in Europe?
    D4 and D5 are respectively identified by the Agency’s Risk Assessment Committee as a persistent, bioaccumulative and toxic (PBT) substance and a very persistent and very bioaccumulative (vPvB) substance under the criteria in Annex XVIII to Regulation (EC) No. 1907/2006, which may give rise to environmental concern when cosmetic products containing D4 or D5 are disposed with water. Also, considering that D4 and D5 evaporate over time after application; while the environmental risk in these products has not been assessed, the Commission addresses the risks by setting a restriction limit on intended usage of D4 and D5 in wash-off cosmetic products only.

    D4 and D5 are restricted with a maximum concentration not exceeding 0.1% by weight of either substance in wash-off cosmetic products. The new restriction applies from February 1, 2020.

    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • Posmatrac10Posmatrac10 Member
    Thank you Belassi - so it is for environmental concerns, not any controversy over usage in cosmetic products. I will be producing about a cup of the moisturizer per month so hopefully not many fish will die  :)
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    @Belassi, sorry just to confirm that I get it right, I thought most of cyclomethicone in the market is a mixture of d4, d5 and d6. If d4 and d5 are going to be banned, does it mean that what is commonly called cyclomethicone will be banned all together?
  • ColorfuljulieColorfuljulie Member
    Formulator Sample Shop has a base called Silderm Formulating base that is pretty easy to add water based actives and a preservative to. Maybe that would be a simple place to start? I’ve used it to make an eyeshadow primer and a face/makeup primer that I’ve really enjoyed. Good luck and have fun formulating!
    (INCI: Cyclopentasiloxane & Dimethicone & Cyclohexasiloxane & Isohexadecane & Ammonium Polyacryloyldimethyl Taurate & Tocopheryl Acetate & Polysorbate 20 & Polysorbate 80)
  • Posmatrac10Posmatrac10 Member
    Thank you I will try that too !
  • smoksmok Member
    Posmatrac10 said:
    Hello,

    I am new to this site and my chemistry knowledge is pretty dusted but I would  like to start making my own cosmetic products for personal use and will appreciate any advice you kind people can give :-).
    I am trying to make a very light facial moisturizer and have ordered ingredients from Lotioncrafter. I am planning to make a hyalorunic acid gel as follows:

    Percent         Grams            Ingredient

     

      85                85                 Apple Essence

      1                  1                  Hyaluronic Acid HMW - 1.0 - 1.5 Million Daltons

      1                  1                  Hyaluronic Acid ELMW 80,000 - 110,000 Daltons

      5                  5                  dl-Panthenol

      5                  5                  Apple Stem Cell Extract 

      3                  3                  Leucidal Liquid


    I have done this one previously and it worked well.

    This time I would like to possible mix this HA gel with the 
    LC995 Cyclomethicone( 96% Cyclopentasiloxane (D5)) somehow  and then add some of Lotioncrafter EL40 ( Dimethicone (and) Dimethicone Crosspolymer) for thickening.
    Is it at all possible ? Do I need to add anything if I want the HA gel and the silicone base to come together ? 
    I believe the silicone base is anhydrous so I can not add the HA to it just so ( as powder) right ? :-) :smile:

    I apologize if I am talking rubbish - any advice is appreciated.

    Thank you

    Helena

  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    If you try what you suggested you will not be able to combine those ingredients. Also, D5 is limited to 0.2% in leave-on products. You'll need an emulsification system and a stabiliser, and silicones are notoriously difficult. You could use a water-dispersible silicone to avoid the problem. It will probably work.
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
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