Vit C Serum that is gel like and has a matte effect

megcapatimegcapati Member
in Skin
Im new in R&D so as my first task I was asked to replicate a product.

Benchmark:
-transparent
-colorless
-matte feel, with just about 2 swipes the product gets absorbed already
-gel like and pretty firm (not watery nor oily)

Formulation:
-water
-carbopol clear = 0.3%
-glycerine = 3%
-BHT (as antioxidant since I cant use sodium metabisulfite) = 0.1%
-niacinamide = 1%
-TEA = 0.5%
-PEG-8 Dimethicone (for matte effect but didn't really do anything) = 4%
-ascorbosilane c = 2%
-polysorbate 80 = 0.5%
-tocopherol acetate = 0.1%
-perfume = 0.1%
(my end product gets absorbed in about 6 swipes but it is already transparent and colorless)

I'm trying to look for a replacement for peg-8 that can really enhance the matte effect.

I've search already if bht can be used in serums, but i cant see anyone using it, but it is labeled as an antioxidant tho. And then, I know there are natural alternatives for sodium metabisulfite but they're really expensive so I can't use them.


Note: This is not a high end product so no worries with low level of vit c and vit e
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Comments

  • BelassiBelassi Member, PCF student
    What is the BHT supposed to be protecting against oxidation?
    Cosmetic Brand Creation. Concept to name to IMPI search to logo and brand registration. In-house graphic design inc. Pantone specs. Cosmetic label and box design & graphics.
  • megcapatimegcapati Member
    Belassi said:
    What is the BHT supposed to be protecting against oxidation?
    Ascorbosilan C. My mentor said that if I removed the sodium metabisulfate, there will be no antioxidant anymore. But vit e is also an antioxidant, right? So will that be enough?
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    edited October 2018
    PEG-8 Dimethicone won’t give you matt look. Remove it. Also, do you really need tocopherol acetate? I have not tried it but I can predict it’s foaming. Both poly-80 and peg-8 are foaming during application. Not very desirable effect for a serum. 
  • Chemist77Chemist77 Member, PCF student
    Tocopheryl acetate is an oil soluble component, on the contrary it will suppress foam. But the use in formula is entirely up to the person who initiated this subject. Not even sure about the function of this benchmark which is being replicated. 
  • megcapatimegcapati Member
    ngarayeva001 said:
    PEG-8 Dimethicone won’t give you matt look. Remove it. Also, do you really need tocopherol acetate? I have not tried it but I can predict it’s foaming. Both poly-80 and peg-8 are foaming during application. Not very desirable effect for a serum. 
    It's not foaming though. I placed it since it is an antioxidant for the ascorbosilane c. I have removed BHT already since i have tocopherol.
  • megcapatimegcapati Member
    Chemist77 said:
    Tocopheryl acetate is an oil soluble component, on the contrary it will suppress foam. But the use in formula is entirely up to the person who initiated this subject. Not even sure about the function of this benchmark which is being replicated. 
    I'm not even sure if the benchamark contains vit c cos it doesn't have any yellow hint it is. It looks like colorless hand sanitizer but has a matte/powdery finish when you apply.

    I still haven't found a raw mat'l that can give this a matte finish...
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    If a serum with vitamin c is yellow it’s place is in the trash bin. It is a poorly formulated product with LAA where l-ascorbic acid turned to dehydroascorbic acid (prooxidant).  Raw materials  that give matt finish: silica, or some kind of dimethicone polymer. I would not add it to a serum.
  • megcapatimegcapati Member
    ngarayeva001 said:
    If a serum with vitamin c is yellow it’s place is in the trash bin. It is a poorly formulated product with LAA where l-ascorbic acid turned to dehydroascorbic acid (prooxidant).  Raw materials  that give matt finish: silica, or some kind of dimethicone polymer. I would not add it to a serum.
    Noted. I will just stop trying to get that matte finish since I also think it's not needed.

    For the vit c. I put ascorbosilane c (originally colors , and it really gives a hint of yellow for the finish product. How do I stop that?
  • ozgirlozgirl Member, PCF student
    I have used The Body Shop Vitamin C Skin Boost Instant Skin Smoother in the past and it gives a matte finish that smooths the look of the skin. It is a silicone based formulation with no water.

    If you want to have the matte effect you may need to move to a silicone based formula.

  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    I have not worked with that derivative. It’s not very common one. At least I have not seen it in products. Check with your supplier if it should be yellow, but as a general rule yellow vitamin C is oxidized vitamin c. LAA in water oxidizes in weeks, MAP is also prone to oxidation though more stable than LAA.
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    @megcapati So, I got curious and googled ASCORBYL METHYLSILANOL PECTINATE. I couldn't find any paper that prooves it's efficiency. Maybe you want to consider another derivative? If so, I would say MAP and Tetrahexydecyl Ascorbate. I heard that Ethyl Ascorbic Acid is great, but I have never worked with it, because it's not sold in small quantities.
    However if your goal is just to replicate the product try this:

    - 0.2% of tetrasoudium EDTA (not disodium, if you want clear product)
    - 1% of niacinamide
    - 1% of MAP (just for claims, it won't do anything)
    - either 0.5% of carbomer (ultrez 20 or 30) or 0.3% of C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate Crosspolymer;
    - 2% of propanediol or butylene glycol (you can add glycerin but not Sodium PCA or Sodium Lactate!);
    - TEA qs to bring the pH to 7; 
    - 0.1% of perfume
    - 0.4% of poly 20 or PEG-40 HCO (poly 80 foams, just compare it with poly 20 and you will see it)
    - 1% of a preservative of your choice. 

    I don't see any reason to add tocopheryl acetate. If you want to do it, just up your solubilizer.


  • LisaSLisaS Member
    I would use hydrolyzed silica. 
  • megcapatimegcapati Member
    ngarayeva001 said:
    @megcapati So, I got curious and googled ASCORBYL METHYLSILANOL PECTINATE. I couldn't find any paper that prooves it's efficiency. Maybe you want to consider another derivative? If so, I would say MAP and Tetrahexydecyl Ascorbate. I heard that Ethyl Ascorbic Acid is great, but I have never worked with it, because it's not sold in small quantities.
    However if your goal is just to replicate the product try this:

    - 0.2% of tetrasoudium EDTA (not disodium, if you want clear product)
    - 1% of niacinamide
    - 1% of MAP (just for claims, it won't do anything)
    - either 0.5% of carbomer (ultrez 20 or 30) or 0.3% of C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate Crosspolymer;
    - 2% of propanediol or butylene glycol (you can add glycerin but not Sodium PCA or Sodium Lactate!);
    - TEA qs to bring the pH to 7; 
    - 0.1% of perfume
    - 0.4% of poly 20 or PEG-40 HCO (poly 80 foams, just compare it with poly 20 and you will see it)
    - 1% of a preservative of your choice. 

    I don't see any reason to add tocopheryl acetate. If you want to do it, just up your solubilizer.


    Hi! So I tried doing this using all the dosages you gave.

    Part A
    Water
    Carbopol Ultrez 20
    Kemidant L (preservative)
    Glycerin
    Tetrasodium EDTA
    Niacinamide
    -------it was clear and viscous

    Part B (i set aside water so I can dissolve MAP into it)
    Water
    MAP
    -------it broke down and became liquid and cloudy (cos of MAP i think)

    Part C
    PEG-40 HCO
    Perfume
    -------current pH 5

    Part D
    TEA
    -------current pH 7 but still liquid

    Ive read that adding MAP at the end part is normal so now I dont know why it broke down. Your help would be greatly appreciated. 
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    How much MAP do you use? This is a reason I don't like carbomers very much, they can be too sensitive to the process. Try adding carbomer to your waterphase right after EDTA. So, water=>EDTA=>MAP=>niacinamide=>carbopol. Then add your preservative, perfume with solubilizer and neutralize. If that doesn't work, replace carbopol to Sepimax Zen (this will work for sure). But as per my experience MAP doen't break viscosity of polymers like some other derivatives. Do you have sodium carbomer? Try that one as well. You don't have to neutralise it.
  • megcapatimegcapati Member
    edited November 2018
    How much MAP do you use? This is a reason I don't like carbomers very much, they can be too sensitive to the process. Try adding carbomer to your waterphase right after EDTA. So, water=>EDTA=>MAP=>niacinamide=>carbopol. Then add your preservative, perfume with solubilizer and neutralize. If that doesn't work, replace carbopol to Sepimax Zen (this will work for sure). But as per my experience MAP doen't break viscosity of polymers like some other derivatives. Do you have sodium carbomer? Try that one as well. You don't have to neutralise it.
    Hi. I used 1% as recommended by you.

    I did water=>EDTA=>MAP=>niacinamide=>carbopol then other ingredients left and it still didn't work. Even after neutralizing. It was liquid and MAP was just not mixed with the solution, it formed numerous small white lumps. 

    Sadly, I dont have sodium carbomer nor sepimax zen. Will try to get one.
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    edited November 2018
    @megcapati I see what is the problem now.  MAP is tricky to dissolve. Heat your waterphase to approx 50C. Measure 1% separately, create a vortex in your water (with a spatula, you don't need a mixer) and add MAP. Then add carbopol. It should work.
  • megcapatimegcapati Member
    @ngarayeva001 what should I measure 1%? do i have to put EDTA already or just water first then MAP then carbopol?
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    edited November 2018
    @megcapati ; Add EDTA to water. Have your 1% of MAP is a separate cup, heat the water with EDTA, take a spatula (spoon whatever) and make a vortex, then add MAP while mixing. This is a good way of mixing MAP. You can use overhead stirrer but not really required. 1% will mix well without any equipment. I mix up to 4 like this. Let me know if it doesn't work, I will run it on a weekend, since I am very curious why it doesn't work for you.
  • megcapatimegcapati Member
    edited November 2018
    @ngarayeva001 still didn't work

    So I added my EDTA in my water. Heated till 50C, made a vortex and added my MAP slowly. Maintained temp at 50C until MAP was fully dissolved. Removed it from heat and added my carbopol for it to hydrate. After a while I mixed it and same result as the previous trial without heating. There were white small lumps.

    Look what I just read: 
    "For systems containing > 1% TS of sodium ascorbyl phosphate or magnesium ascorbyl phosphate, Carbopol® Ultrez 20 polymer can be combined with nonionic rheology modifiers such as xanthan gum or HEC. Combining xanthan gum with Carbopol® polymers is recommended because the thickening and stabilizing is more effective with Carbopol® polymers than xanthan gum by itself; the aesthetics and sensory of xanthan gum are improved by blending with Carbopol® polymers; and combinations thereof give some options in formulating high electrolytecontaining systems."
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    @megcapati, your excerpt about adding xatham would make sense, if you said that you couldn't reach desired viscosity, but that definitely doesn't explain white lumps. I will run this experiment on the weekend. I am very curious why it doesn't work.
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    @megcapati, these lumps?
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    It’s carbopol. It takes several hours to hydrate. It works perfectly and leaves mat finish, as you wanted. Just leave for 2-2.5 hours prior to neutralizing. I used parabens because I don’t have your preservative.
  • megcapatimegcapati Member
    @ngarayeva001 no not like that. it's purely liquid. ill try it again later and take a photo so you can see. 
  • megcapatimegcapati Member
    edited November 2018
    @ngarayeva001 i did the same process again and carbopol has been added 4 hours ago before i took the photo
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    I really wonder why it's so liquid! Try kick out experiment. May be its your preservative or fragrance? Because other inputs we used are the same. How much carbopol do you use? I used 0.5%
  • ngarayeva001ngarayeva001 Member
    @megcapati,  I made an experiment with C10-30 Alkyl Acrylate Crosspolymer (which is the same as ultrez 20) and it was much less viscous. I didn't have white lumps, but the viscosity was similar to yours. Consider another type of thickener. I had a very thick transparent gel with ultrez 30.
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