Temp Wrinkle Remover & Sodium Silicate

DavidWDavidW Member, PCF student
Does anyone have experience in formulating instant wrinkle removers using sodium silicate that wouldn't mind helping via private message?

Comments

  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    I have done so. It is not a safe product. The pH is way up there.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    edited May 2017
    Yes, the pH is high, but the trick is as you acidify to reduce the pH it forms a gel and functions as a thickener.  I personally don't like these types of products as the effect is a complete optical illusion with no long-term benefit. But, dropping the pH is the key.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • MicroformulationMicroformulation Member, Professional Chemist
    Interesting. Before I knocked it off the first time, I tested a sample. The sample (the MLM product sold online) had an existing high pH. Also, someone posted an EU Safety bulletin regarding the pH. But it is something I will look into.

    I agree with the optical illusion. Also, in my experience, the people approaching me to "knock-off" this product tend to be more business oriented (hence naive regarding Cosmetics) and willing to push the marketing envelope than I am generally comfortable with.
    markfuller@microformulation.com Microformulation.com Microformulation Cosmetic Consulting provides Custom Formulations for both large Commercial accounts as well as smaller entrepreneurs. We can provide Naturally compliant Formulations under the NSF, NPA, Whole Foods and USDA Organic Certifications. BS.Pharm Albany College of Pharmacy, Union University.
  • PerryPerry Administrator, Professional Chemist
    If it had a long term effect it wouldn't be a legal cosmetic.
  • DavidWDavidW Member, PCF student
    Yes, the pH is high.  Many of the current ones on the market are high pH.  Being a manufacturer, we try to please the customer.  It's not like it will be the only product out there with a high pH.  And yes, being a manufacturer this product is business driven.  I used to make one back in the late 80's early 90's that was very popular.  A particular customer I am working with now to develop one doesn't care for any of the formulations I have made.  I tried making one without the usual Veegum and xanthan gum in the formula.  I figured I would use Natrosol as the thickener.  My intent was to add that, all the other ingredients and save the high pH ingredient for last.  I thought that by doing so the raising of the pH would then thicken the product as normally happens with the natrosol I use (thickens by raising the pH).  Instead, everything fell apart and separated. 

    I'm under the gun as I need a sample they like by tomorrow to submit to a major chain on Friday.  Something that doesn't turn white after it dries.
  • DavidWDavidW Member, PCF student
    MarkBroussard Are you willing to share any info on what you have done in the past either here in in private?  If not I understand.
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @DavidW:

    Sure, no problem.  I made one product like this for a client and don't expect to make any other unless the money is good enough ... just not something I am interested in, but I will be happy to share with you what I know.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @DavidW:

    e-mail me at:  mark.broussard@desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com

    I'll see what I can do to help you out.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • @DavidW : I have no experience in formulating this type of product. But if you are looking for acceptable benchmarks, I have heard rave reviews about the instantaneous effect of this product from women who have experienced it first hand. 

    LOI: Aqua, Sodium Silicate, Magnesium Aluminum Silicate, Sodium Polystyrene Sulfonate, Cucumis Sativus Fruit Extract, Acetyl Hexapeptide-8, Caprylic/Capric Triglyceride, Sodium Hyaluronate, Persea Gratissima Oil, Tuber Melanosporum (Black Truffle) Extract, Ethylhexylglycerin, Phenoxyethanol, Iron Oxide, Mica, Titanium Dioxide, Xanthan Gum, Dimethylaminoethanol Tartrate, Retinyl Palmitate, Tocopheryl Acetate
  • Chemist77Chemist77 Member, PCF student
    @EliseCortes Looking at the price I felt a wrinkle on my face is 1200 times better than those in my pocket  :)
  • Bill_TogeBill_Toge Member, Professional Chemist
    it never fails to amaze me how uptight and superstitious people can get about completely innocuous things like parabens, and yet they're perfectly happy to put a highly caustic and alkaline product under their eyes: a product which is basically cement minus the sand
    UK based formulation chemist. Strongest subjects: hair styling, hair bleaches, hair dyes (oxidative and non-oxidative) I know some stuff about: EU regulations, emulsions (O/W and W/O), toothpaste, mouthwash, shampoos, other toiletries
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @Bill_Toge:

    It's very commonly used in the Oil Industry as drilling fluid.  But, then there are quite a few ingredients that have both cosmetic and industrial uses.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @EliseCortes:

    LOL! ... Seriously, $1,200! ... from the ad copy "This innovative product is the ultimate tool"  

    They certainly got the ad copy right ... only the "ultimate tool" would pay $1,200 for a products whose effect lasts perhaps 6 hours.


    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • DavidWDavidW Member, PCF student
    Mark thank you very much.
    Elise I appreciate you trying to help
    Bill, we just give the customers what they want as long as when used properly it won't hurt them.
  • Lol... @MarkBroussard no arguments here.

    And yet there are spas in the US employing estheticians to pick tourists off the streets by offering a free demonstration of this product and within 30 mins some of them will have parted with as much $$$ as I would pay for a small car.

    Good luck @DavidW
  • We don't develop these kind of products although with limited data EWG rates it a 3 (low toxicity).Also FYI  see patent  http://www.google.com/patents/EP0244859A2?cl=en i
  • johnbjohnb Member, Professional Chemist
    edited May 2017
    I have quoted and discussed the Kligman patent on this elsewhere on the group - there have been previous posts on this matter. What seems to be missing again in the present discussion is the presence of film formers in the product. The Kligman patent claims " - - sodium silicate, human serum albumin and an aqueous carrier therefor." It is my view that the highlighted (my highlighting) ingredient is the one that is all important as this, like some other film forming proteins like gelatin and egg albumen, dry on the skin causing tightening. This use of egg white is an old theatrical trick for producing an oriental appearance to the face by applying the egg white to the sides of the face near to the eye and allowing to dry.

    The discussion re. sodium silicate is somewhat misleading. The material is available in numerous grades. Some are alkaline (metasilicate) some very alkaline (orthosilicate) and some fairly neutral. This last is called waterglass and is used as a heatproof adhesive as well as for preserving eggs. I believe that waterglass is the grade intended by Kligman (all of this is elucidated in the patent).

    See https://chemistscorner.com/cosmeticsciencetalk/discussion/comment/16325/#Comment_16325

  • also makes a good corrosion inhibitor on metal surfaces.
  • johnbjohnb Member, Professional Chemist
    also makes a good corrosion inhibitor on metal surfaces.

    Very true!
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    edited May 2017
    Actually, the Sodium Silicate is the film former in these formulations.  You can supplement with additional film formers, but they're really not necessary.

    And, there isn't a "cosmetic" grade of Sodium Silicate except for one which are beads meant as a replacement for polymer beads in liquid cleansers.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @EliseCortes:

    Yes, I recently got roped into a shop on Lincoln Road in Miami ... Adore Cosmetics ... really hard sell tactics ... tried to sell me an anti-wrinkle kit with Stem Cells for $2,000 that I could make myself for $20 or so.

    These practitioners pray on passerby.  I feel sorry for the people who get duped into making a purchase.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    @johnb:

    Yes, you are correct ... Waterglass is the proper variant of Sodium Silicate to use in these types of formulations, but it is quite alkaline.  I would not put it on my skin, particularly in the under-eye area without adjusting the pH to slightly acidic.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • Unknown Member
    I am not a chemist, though I've taken chemistry courses in my past. My concern is that, usually, when you acidify an alkaline chemical, you're changing it into something else (ie: a salt). What happens when you add an acid to an alkaline, sodium silicate mixture? Do you still have sodium silicate after that neutralization? If yes, then how is the neutralization happening? Sorry if my question is amateurish!
  • Hi Everyone 

    I know this is an old discussion, so shall also make a new thread after posting my question here for all you chemists out there.

    A quick background:  Way back in 1984 I stumbled upon a cheap lotion in a drugstore in London, UK called Temporary Wrinkle Remover.  I was only 16 at the time, but had some acne indentation scarring on my temple that made me dreadfully self-conscious. When I saw this lotion I figured if it worked for wrinkles (albeit temporarily) it may fill in the scarring I was so unhappy about.

    It was like a miracle. It completely filled the scarring in and my temple looked smooth and normal again. I was over the moon!

    I used it when going out socialising, and can honestly say it changed my life — that’s how self-conscious I was of that pitted scarring. To my utter dismay they stopped producing it just a few years later! They did bring out copycat formulas (still do), and Ive tried them all. Every single one. But not one is a patch on the original.

    I've even bought copycat lotions that list the same ingredients but the formula is not the same, and they don’t have the same magical effect.

    I realise they’re not skin treatments or medication; they’re simply concealers. But for a woman, or man, the impact on one’s self-esteem is incredible just to look like you have “normal” skin.

    The original formula contained: D.I.  Water,  Sodium Silicate,  Magnesium Aluminium Silicate, Iron Oxides

    I believe it was manufactured for a company in Florida, possibly in China — I no longer have an original bottle. I do remember it came in a small 1 fl.oz White Plastic Bottle and afternoon shaking the bottle, the clear, slightly pink lotion poured slowly out and was like a paste.

    Unlike the copycat lotions when the original dried after dabbing a tiny amount onto your skin, you would feel a very strong tightening/lifting effect. Much stronger than the copycat ones of today. But besides that, once it had dried, if you stroked your fingertip across the dried lotion on (in my case on my temple), although it looked smooth it actually felt rough — as though you were stroking sandpaper. That sounds unpleasant, but the effect was simply magical — and it lasted all day too! It didn’t wear off until you washed your face at night.

    My question is: what would have given the lotion that very strong tightening effect, and what ingredient would have made it feel like rough sandpaper once it had dried?

    I don’t have the exact formula, obviously, nor do I know what strength/type Sodium Silicate, Magnesium Sodium Silicate was used as I’m not a Chemist.

    Please, if anyone could help me or suggest what I’d need to make some up for myself that would create that same original formula I would be forever grateful and obviously pay for your time or/and advice

    Many, many thanks in advance!

    JX
  • DavidWDavidW Member, PCF student
    Was the product you used to use made for or by a company named either "Top Billing" or Boyd's ?  Was it maybe called "No Lines Temporary Wrinkle Remover"  Do you recall if it looked very similar to the picture below?

    If the answer to any of these is yes then I am the person who manufactured the product for them back in the 1980's and 90's


  • Hi David,

    Thank you for your message.

    No, unfortunately that wasn’t the same one. I actually bought that when the original one was no longer available, and although it was OK, I’m afraid it wasn’t anything close to the original.

    The original came in a white plastic bottle, and I do have an almost identical bottle when someone tried to reproduce the original except the bottle was clear.  I have it somewhere and will take a photo...it looked identical, except the original was white plastic, and although it was called the same and listed the same ingredients it wasn’t the same formula.

    Like I said, the original formula was incredible. I used it for about five years and it totally 100% removed every single indentation scar, and people I knew who had wrinkles absolutely raved about it. It was like sweeping a magic wand over you face, and nothing since competes.


  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    @JLLL18 Maybe you and your friends just grew older and gravity and co. got the better of you? *Ducks-and-runs-away*
  • Haha, no not at all 😌

    In fact, I have no wrinkles or lines even now — in that respect I’m very lucky — but that’s probably genetic as all my family look years younger that their age and do have good skin.

    Sadly, I suffered from teenage spots/acne, and it left horrid indentations in my temple area which I was, and still am, so self-conscious of.  

    I have tried every lotion on the market, including cosmetic procedures, and not one of them hides that scarring like that original lotion did.  The No Lines Lotion you refer to was kind of similar, but much thinner, more fluid, and crucially didn’t contain that brilliant tightening substance, nor did it feel “gritty” when it dried.

    Back in the 1980s when I first stumbled upon it, I told people about — women much older than me who did have wrinkles. One woman had severely deep wrinkles and lines, and when she bought some she almost cried as it completely 100% made them disappear, albeit temporarily until it was washed off.

    When I bought copycat formulas afterwards, not one had the same effect 😔

    I’m sure someone, somewhere, must know what that magic formula/ingredient was.

    As you’ve seen, I’ve listed the ingredients that was on the original, so I suspect it’s the actual formula that needs to be replicated.

    I did enquire years ago when emailing one company who’d made a copycat formula, and they told me they’d been trying to replicate the original but they too didn’t have the exact same formula.

    It’s such a shame, as it was truly miraculous.

    All I know is that it felt gritty like sandpaper/broken glass once dried, but it was invisible to the eye and your skin just looked perfectly smooth.

    Do you have any idea what ingredient caused that gritty touch?  Could it be the Magnesium Aluminium Silicate — which I think may be Water Glass having researched on Google?


  • DavidWDavidW Member, PCF student
    If you have the original, take a picture of it.  Also if it says a company or anything on the back.

    Back in the 1980's there was only about 5 to 10 manufacturers in the entire state of Florida including a family business I worked for in South Florida.  If it was made in Florida I must know them 
  • Hi David,

    I’ve just seen your message.

    I will take a photo of the bottle I have which, although isn’t the original white plastic bottle, it’s identical in shape/size, and lists the exact same ingredients that the original did. However, the lotion did not have the same effect, so I can only imagine that the company who created this copycat one mixed the formula up differently.

    I shall take a photo as soon as I get home on a few hours and post it up for you.

     Thank you so, so much for your help!  
  • Hi David,

    I’ve attached two photos of the copycat formula.

    The original bottle wasn’t transparent — it was solid white plastic — but everything else was identical: the shape, wording, ingredients, and that it was made in Florida. I don’t remember the name of the company, unfortunately.

    Although this formula is similar, it’s nowhere near as effective as the original. And it isn’t a “bad one” as I ordered 20 bottles when I thought I’d rediscovered it: none of the formulas in all those 20 bottles were like the original. I bought these ones about 10 years ago after searching on Google, and I believe they stopped producing them soon after.

    I did email the company prior to ordering them and got a reply back to say they were trying to recreate that original formula — but it just wasn’t the same.

    I saw a comment one customer made in a review who said how the original formula was so fantastic it could’ve removed deep creases from crumbled linen sheets — and she was right. What was also so good about it, besides it totally eradicating acne scars, lines & wrinkles, was that it also went very, very tight creating a “lift”. And what was so amazing was that after it dried and you talked, smiled, laughed etc — there was no creasing/bunching/folding where you’d applied the lotion. When it dried it was invisible to the eye.

    Neither did it leave lots of white residue on the edges like many copycat ones do: if you applied it by just dabbing it on in tiny quantities it left no white residue at all, but if you rushed and applied too much and there was a tiny amount of white residue just outside the outer edge you’d simply wipe it away with a wet cotton bud and it was gone. No-one could ever tell you were wearing anything at all on your skin, even when they came right close-up to your face to look: I often showed friends how fabulous it was and they couldn’t even see I had anything on my skin, in fact, some didn’t believe I had anything on my skin at all — they just thought my skin looked completely normal and smooth.

    Another great thing about it, though I only tried this a few times, was that you could mix the lotion with foundation (any type at all), and it still had that same amazing effect of 100% hiding wrinkles, lines and acne scars. It would have hidden any scar, I’d imagine, except maybe raised keloid ones, but I suspect it would have even helped smooth and flatten those out too due to its extreme tightening effect.

    Sorry to go on so much, but it was such a fantastic product and I was genuinely heartbroken when they stopped making it. 
  • DavidWDavidW Member, PCF student
    Ah, Life Works.  We made product for them.  The gentleman who owned the company was named Sid Katz. He passed away many, many years ago.  Don't know what happened to the company after that.  IF the other product was made in South Florida there is a good chance we made it too
  • DavidWDavidW Member, PCF student
    BTW, it's the sodium silicate that is "water glass".  And most all leave a residue.  The amount depends on the person's skin and the amount of silicate in the formula.  A few other things too but the ones I mentioned are the main ones.
  • Thank you for your reply, David.

    How sad that the gentleman who possibly made the original died: I wonder if anyone knows what his formula was?

    I’m not a chemist, obviously, but as I’ve tried all the other similar lotions, including the copycat one I posted above, and not one of them were as effective as the original I can only think it was the amount he used of the sodium silicate? Am I right, do you think? As the sodium silicate is water glass it must be that which gave the original the gritty feel, yes?

    Will you be creating any more, or do you have any tips on how I could create some myself? Are there different types/strengths of sodium silicate and magnesium aluminium silicate?

    Thank you so much for your help :)
  • Hey JLLL18,

    Have you tried Nanoblur by Indeed Labs? It's based more on silicones but when i last tested it, gave the "sand paper" feel you mention - also was our gold standard for wrinkle filling and pore minimising.

    I'm currently looking into the Sodium Silicate based formulations, of which there are two identical products that have great results:

    Vitayes Instant Ageback:
    Water, magnesium aluminum silicate, propylene glycol, sodium silicate, acetyl hexapeptide-8 (argielinel), phenoxyethanol, ethylhexlglycerin c1 16035

    And

    Jeunesse Instantly Ageless
    Water (Aqua), Sodium Silicate, Magnesium Aluminum Silicate, Acetyl Hexapeptide-8 (Argireline), Phenoxyethanol, Ethylexylglycerin, Yellow 5 (Cl 19140), Red 40 (Cl16035)

    I'm looking for formulation tips on a product like this, again for a client - DavidW, did Mark ever get back to you via private email all those years ago? Would you mind sharing?
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    Wait a sec... water plus sodium and magnesium aluminium silicate without an added acid = alkaline brew (pH >11) = hydrolysis of Argireline and ethylhexylglycerin, likely degradation of phenoxyethanol, and probable degradation of Yellow 5.
    Not that Argireline would do anything useful in that product in the first place and I'm also not complaining about loss of preservatives in a product which doesn't need preservation, it's rather the absence of any logic behind such a mixture and who the heck had the weird idea to put waterglass on his/her face? Maybe try to add a polymer to hold the film together for a longer period of time and retard/reduce cracking once dried?
  • MarkBroussardMarkBroussard Member, Professional Chemist
    These "instant wrinkle remover" products have been around for quite some time ... you can add an acid to lower the pH.  The most popular one is Plexaderm.

    As it dries, the waterglass forms a film that contracts giving the optical illusion of the wrinkles "disappearing" ... in reality, the polymer just pulls the skin taut and it last for 5-6 hours.  Quite difficult to formulate these without it leaving a white residue.

    Pharma ... you should not be amazed at what people will do and/or put on their skin in the quest for "beauty" ... I still think the most ridiculous I've come across yet is anal bleaching.
    Chemist/Microbiologist formulating in the Organic & Naturals arena under ECOCert/Natural Products Assn/Whole Foods/National Organic Program guidelines focused skincare & haircare products. 

    See website for details www.desertinbloomcosmeticslab.com
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    Oh god, don't remind me of that thread! My vivid imagination got the better of me back then :blush:
    True, silicates are tricky to formulate and predict, I know as much from hydroponics.
  • @Pharma How do you prevent the white powder from occurring? What is its cause?
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    It's polymerised silicic acid aka precipitated silica. At first, it forms a layer of 'glass' on your skin but then, due to movements, that layer cracks into said powder. You can not prevent it from happening, it's an inherent property of silicates. There have been investigations and some patented inventions which claim stabilised silica. A: This, were it working, would not form the tightening film and B: My trials didn't work out. I did recook and modify about a dozen and none were stable for more than a few days at the concentration I wanted.
    I've never tried anything regarding stabilising the film (my trials were for other uses such as hydroponics and fun experiments with deep eutectic solvents because one key ingredient therein is claimed to stabilise silicate solutions). My imagination here would be to add a gelling agent or film-forming polymer to 'glue' that glass layer together and imparting enough flexibility to the film to keep it from cracking and have it stick to skin better.
  • Hi guys,

    Thanks for answering after a 3 and a half year slumber!

    It looks like the latest ones are adding colorants to combat the white residue, but I'm not sure if it's working. I think some recommend using as a base underneath make up for the best effect.

    Specifically with the pH i'm assuming lowering the pH too much will turn it into silicic acid inside the formula, meaning the formula needs to stay at a constant pH of 9.5+ (or at least above the pKa of Sodium Silicate). I'm not sure how they are allowed to recommend use around the eyes at this pH. Does anyone know what the pH of Plexaderm is?
  • My experience:

    If the pH drops below 9.5-10 the product is not very effective. Best effect if kept at pH 10-11. Just have to be careful with instructions about not getting it into the eye.

    I also would like to know the pH of Plexiderm?
  • @ Pharma. I agree with your comments. I think the white powder issue can be lessened to a significant degree with the right mix of ingredients. I am working on it and it is not easy to solve.
  • @ Pharma and others---what preservative, if any, works best at the pH 10-11found in this product?
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    At a pH above 10, some mould (mostly on the surface) and alkaliphile bacteria can grow. I'm not familiar whether or not such alkaliphiles are even present in everyday life and/or are common cosmetic spoilage germs. If you want/need preservation at all, you might consider adding a preservative which is active against fungi, chemically stable, and slightly volatile (headspace preservation). I'm thinking of phenylpropanol or its combo with caprylyl glycol and/or pentylene glycol or hexanediol. With luck, the glycols might increase the products haptic profile too by reduce cracking/whitening as well as soothing/moisturising skin.
  • @Pharma --What concentration of pentylene glycol?
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    Depends ;) . Why do you want to add it? If it's for preservation: Do you want to use other preservatives alongside pentylene glycol? Around 5% is the 'standard' concentration for it. You'll have to try out and see if you like the outcome.
  • @Pharma --Does Pentylene glycol by itself act as a preservative?

    Does it function at a pH of greater than 10?

    Does it function to enhance the preservation of other preservatives? 
  • PharmaPharma Member, Pharmacist
    Yes, yes, and yes. Although, you need enough for to achieve the yes.
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