Comments

• Herbnerd Member

  February 2014

  depending on how waxy it is, I would probably finely mill some high intensity sweeteners - Sucralose, Aspartame, Acesulfame Potassium (Ace-K), Stevia Thalin/Thaumatin etc and disperse throughout the lip-balm.
  
  I have done flavoured fish oil softgels this way.
  
  
• Avick Member

  February 2014

  Thanks, herbnerd! Yeah, I think I'll do that--go with stevia. I'm not a huge fan of the bitter aftertaste, but perhaps just a touch. Appreciate your help!
• Bobzchemist Member, PCF student

  February 2014

  Ultra-fine milling in a viscous base is important, or the lip feel will be gritty.

  Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
• Ruben Member

  February 2014

  Robert,
  What kind of mill do you suggest to get ultra fine particles? Any idea of idea of the particle size needed to avoid a gritty feel.
  Thank you
  Ruben
  
• Chemist77 Member, PCF student

  February 2014

  @Ruben maybe particle size equivalent to micronized ZnO or Titanium Dioxide.
• Herbnerd Member

  February 2014

  Regarding Stevia - you can source Rebaudoside A, which is much sweeter than Stevia alone and allows you to use less of it. Most of the stuff I have found is very fine - almost talc-like
  
  in the USA, contact Cargil, if elsewhere in the world, contact Layn in China. They do some very nice product - and perhaps look at their Monk fruit/Reb A blends
  
  
• Ruben Member

  February 2014

  @milliachemist. I checked the specs. of a TiO2 supplier and they guarantee a particle size less than 20 nm. I wonder if you really need particles that small to avoid the gritty feel. Herbnerd mentioned talk. I found the finest talc is about 10 microns.
  
  I've been trying to grind a compound to a very fine powder to suspend it in a an anhydrous system. The best I did so far is 150 microns (100 mesh) using a mortar and pestle. I still haven't tested it in my formula, but I have the feeling it will be too coarse. I probably need to get a ball mill. Thanks
  
• Chemist77 Member, PCF student

  February 2014

  @Ruben maybe you are right and as I remember fine talc as a filler in color emulsions doesnt give a gritty feel, try to match the micron size of something similar. Try your ground powder too and you will know where you stsnd re the particle size.
• Bobzchemist Member, PCF student

  February 2014

  Use a muller(cheapest) a ball mill, or a 3-roll mill(most expensive) Mortar and pestle will not work.

  
  

  use this to judge fineness: http://www.gardco.com/pages/dispersion/fg/SSgrindgage.cfm 

  
  

  4 Hegman or higher, 2 mil/50 micron particle size or lower = no gritty feel

  
  

  talc/mica are exceptions due to platy particles. 

  Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
• Bobzchemist Member, PCF student

  February 2014

  http://www.exakt.de/Pharmacy-Equipment.9+M52087573ab0.0.html

  Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
• Bobzchemist Member, PCF student

  February 2014

  http://www.ebay.com/itm/like/190501904097?lpid=82

  
  

  http://www.coleparmer.com/buy/product/52773-one-tier-jar-high-capacity-laboratory-jar-mill-13-roller-115-vac-60-hz.html

  
  

  Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
• Bobzchemist Member, PCF student

  February 2014

  https://www.midwestsupplies.com/monster-mill-mm3-3-roller-mill.html?utm_medium=feeds&utm_source=google&gdftrk=gdfV24959_a_7c1306_a_7c6184_a_7c6638&gclid=CNSJsY-oyLwCFY1r7Aod51sAtA

  Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
• Bobzchemist Member, PCF student

  February 2014

  http://www.retsch.com/mixer/laboratory_ball_mill.php

  Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
• Bobzchemist Member, PCF student

  February 2014

  http://www.art-boards.com/Muller's.htm

  
  

  http://www.utrechtart.com/Utrecht-Muller--Medium-MP-04808-002-i1003112.utrecht

  Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
• Bobzchemist Member, PCF student

  February 2014

  http://www.hoovercolor.com/products/muller/

  
  

  http://www.engelsmann.de/en/products/laboratory-technology/automatic-pigment-muller.html

  Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
• Ruben Member

  February 2014

  @Bobzchemist. Thank you taking the time to answer my question so comprehensively. This is exactly what I need. I am going to start with a Muller and then probably get a ball mill grinder. What size of grinding media do you think I need to achieve 50 microns? Thanks again.
  
• Avick Member

  April 2014

  Hi again and thanks to everyone who commented on this. Just wanted to update that the Spectra 11 stone melanger from Santha has turned out to be a really great microdispersion tool for getting botanical materials into very smooth buttery pastes for stick applications. I recommend!
  
  Cheers,
  Amanda
  
• Bobzchemist Member, PCF student

  April 2014

  Thanks, Amanda.

  
  

  Sorry for getting back to this so late, but I have no idea what media size will work best - check with the mill companies or the companies that sell media.

  Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
• Bobzchemist Member, PCF student

  April 2014

  I just looked at the melanger online - really great idea for lab equipment! If/when anyone uses this for grinding pigment dispersions, please let us all know how it works.

  
  

  @makingskincare, you should definitely take a look at this for foundations and lip products.

  Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."
• MakingSkincare Member, Professional formulator

  April 2014 edited April 2014

  Thanks so much Bobzchemist.

  
  

  I live in the UK so it's a bit hard to get hold of.  For something automated and cheap and cheerful, how about a coffee grinder ??

  Jane Barber
  www.makingskincare.com
  www.learncosmeticformulation.com (free online course)
  Formulation discussion forum (18,000 members): www.facebook.com/groups/makingskincare/
  
• Bobzchemist Member, PCF student

  April 2014

  Unfortunately, coffee grinders and/or kitchen blenders don't generate enough shear. Going cheaper than this mixer, but with larger capacity than a muller would require an improvised ball mill. Start with a good quality rock tumbler...like the Lortone 3A or 33B Rock Tumbling Kits 

  
  

  http://www.amazon.com/Lortone-3A-Rotary-Jewelry-Tumbler/dp/B000RB16W8/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1398824739&sr=8-1&keywords=lortone+rock+tumbler+kit 

  
  

  http://www.amazon.com/Lortone-33b-Double-Barrel-Tumbler/dp/B0058EDSPW/ref=sr_1_16?ie=UTF8&qid=1398824739&sr=8-16&keywords=lortone+rock+tumbler+kit

  
  

  Media:

  http://unitednuclear.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=25_35&products_id=365

  
  

  http://www.ebay.com/bhp/ball-mill-media

  
  

  Robert Zonis, Sr. Formulation Chemist, Beaumont Products "All opinions and comments expressed are my own, have no relation to Beaumont Products, are fully copyrighted, and may not be used without written permission."